Wed 19 Aug, 2009
Katrina Browne on slavery apology at CNN.com
Comments (312) Filed under: RemediesTags: Apologies, Katrina Browne, Racial discrimination, Slavery, U.S. Senate
My cousin Katrina Browne has a commentary up this afternoon at CNN.com, entitled “Slavery needs more than an apology.”
Katrina is the director and producer of the Emmy-nominated PBS documentary Traces of the Trade: A Story from the Deep North. The film explores the history and legacy of our ancestors, who were the most successful slave-trading family in U.S. history.
In her commentary, Katrina writes about the significance of the U.S. Senate’s apology this summer for the nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination. She discusses how little most Americans understand about this history or its enduring significance today, and asks why we cannot embrace this history and address its consequences in a positive spirit today.
Kathie Arbogast says:
Slavery was over 100 years ago get over it. I never owned a slave and I don’t owe anyone for it.
People need to just move on. Do we need to pay the indians for taking their land and then the indians pay the animals for taking their land and where does it end.
black people have more than equality now so it has been fixed. They need to quit using it for an excuse and get on with their lives. GET A GRIP AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPPORTUNITIES OFFERED YOU THAT ARE NOT OFFERED TO ME AS A WHITE PERSON
I don’t owe anyone for slaves I didn’t have and none of my family ever owned. If I have to pay for it I should at least have one. This makes about as much sense as paying for something that happened over 100 yrs ago
Barbara Jackson says:
Kathie,
this is the most ignorant response I have read in a while on the subject of slavery. It is not about owing anyone anything it is about acknowledging and healing from a event that has caused catastrophic damage to our society in ways that you probably don’t even recognize. And why are you directing your anger toward black people when the article is written by Katrina Browne a woman who clearly identifies with being European American. I think you need to deal with embedded issues that you have not dealt with regarding how slavery and its stigma has unconsciously affected you, it is clear that it has because your negative tone says it all.
I hope you find peace.
RODAN says:
Nope…it’s not about owing anyone anything…period. So why discuss?
James says:
Slavery was over 100 years ago get over it. I never owned a slave and I don’t owe anyone for it.
Kathie, how can you ask people to simply “move on” when there are still profound consequences, both tangible and intangible, from slavery and racial discrimination in our society today?
I realize, of course, that slavery was long ago. But our nation has never addressed its consequences, and we’ve had very little time since ending the Jim Crow era.
I also realize that you weren’t responsible for slavery. Neither was I. But our lives are, nevertheless, still impacted by that history today.
black people have more than equality now so it has been fixed.
Kathie, what are you talking about? Black citizens have far less than equality right now, by any socioeconomic measure you can name. As for opportunity, we know that programs like affirmative action are a drop in the bucket compared to the disadvantage blacks face.
What opportunities do you think aren’t offered to you, that are offered to blacks? Your name suggests that you’re a woman. Are you aware, for instance, that white women have benefited more from affirmative action programs than blacks have?
I don’t owe anyone for slaves I didn’t have and none of my family ever owned.
Are you sure about that, Kathie? I’ve frequently heard this from people whose ancestors were in this country prior to 1865. If so, you would need to know quite a bit about your ancestors. Families in both North and South commonly owned slaves.
James says:
Thanks for participating, Barbara, and for helping Kathie to understand a perspective different from her own. I can tell you from extensive experience that the gaps in her knowledge concerning slavery are quite common, and so I wouldn’t want us to be too critical of her misconceptions, even as we can suggest that she is displaying quite a bit of misdirected hostility.
Rick S says:
Enough already! I’m sorry that there was slavery in the US history. That being said there has been, and still is, slavery throughout the world! My ancesters (of many nations apparently) both were slaves and owned slaves. There is no culture in the history of mankind that did not have slaves! Should we appologize to everyone? Should the Italians pay me reparation for owning some of my ancestors? What about my English ancestors? Some of them became slaves to the Vikings, do I get an apology from Sweden or any other Nordic country? How about reparation for them as well? What about my Germanic ancestry? Do I get an apology, again from Italy, from any culture that held any Germanic peoples as slaves? How about reparation for them as well? I could be rich many times over!!! So enough about apologies and reparations for slavery! Enough!
What we need to do to make amends is to stop slavery (it still exists today) and ensure it never happens again. We need to ensure EVERYONE has equal opportunity to fail or prosper as they deem fit. No one should have a opportunity to get an education, job, food, housing, or anything else that another does not simply based on race, creed, sexual nature, or birth. Let’s make it so that hard work is awarded not your race, sexual nature, creed, or birth! And let’s make it so for EVERYONE! Does the UNCF help caucasian children attend college? If not it should be disbanded because that is an award based on RACE rather than ability or hard work! Do white applicants have a disadvantage in getting a civil job simply because they are white? That should be illegal! No one should have an opportunity based on race, sexual nature, creed, or birth that others do not have simply because they are not of that race, sexual nature, creed, or birth!
EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, NOT JUST SOME!!!!!
Legal GAL says:
Let’s not forget that these crimes against humanity were also perpetrated by Europeans and other Africans. Why is this separation of people (and resentment on both sides) so persistent in the United States but not to in say, the UK?
James says:
Rick, I think you raise important issues about when we should apologize for historical events.
It’s true that slavery was hardly unique to the United States. Does that mean, however, that we as a nation should not bother to apologize for our own slavery? Especially given that the effects of that slavery are still felt by many of our citizens today?
That last point is, I think, an essential aspect of this debate. Many U.S. citizens today have not yet been given the opportunity to overcome the disadvantages wrought by slavery. This is why arguments for apologizing (and even for offering reparations) resonate so strongly today.
This is also why your comment, “EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, NOT JUST SOME!!!!!,” makes so little sense to me. Do you really, truly, believe that black Americans have more rights than you do?
Blacks still face considerable discrimination in this country, and more importantly, have inherited disadvantages from earlier eras of more blatant discrimination. Meanwhile, programs to advantage blacks and other minorities have hardly made a dent in these disadvantages; they certainly haven’t put blacks into a privileged position.
What we need to do to make amends is to stop slavery (it still exists today) and ensure it never happens again.
I do believe this is important, Rick.
However, I wouldn’t want to see such a call be used to divert our attention from the lingering consequences of our own history of slavery and racism, much less the impact of that history today.
sharpright7 says:
I for one am sick and tired of being called a racist and being asked to appologize for something that I had nothing to do with! All of this stupid far left apology nonsense is really nauseating. Racism is blamed for everything in the U.S. these days that involves black people. I am the decendent of poor scotch-irish imigrants and american indians (cherokee). I am the fisrst person in my family to even get to go to college. I am going to college not because I whined about how unfairly the world has treated me but because I work hard. There are very few people that are not suffering from a long blood line of oppression. The only difference in most of those people and black people is that the black race does not seem to have the emotional maturity to move forward. They would rather whine and complain that work. Why don’t these disgruntled people trace back the ancestory of both black and white people to see who exactly was involved in slavery instead of generalizing that it was every white person in america today that caused them hardship? Who hasn’t had hardship and oppression in their ancestory?
James says:
Let’s not forget that these crimes against humanity were also perpetrated by Europeans and other Africans.
This is very true, Legal Gal, and it reminds us that slavery and racism are broad-based phenomena and are not specific to any one society or people (much less any one race).
However, what lesson do you draw from this observation for the present discussion?
Why is this separation of people (and resentment on both sides) so persistent in the United States but not to in say, the UK?
I’m not sure what “separation of people” you’re referring to, Legal Gal.
To be sure, there is more racial resentment, on all sides, in the U.S. than in the U.K. But then, the U.K. doesn’t have a large population suffering from many generations of slavery and Jim Crow-style discrimination. So I’m not sure that the rather different nature of race relations in the U.S. and U.K. is much of a mystery.
Rick S says:
Barbara,
I don’t think Kathie’s anger is directed towards blacks. It is directed toward those who have developed the Equal Opportunity policies that are in place today. Take, for example, those firefighters in New England who were denied advancement simply because of their race. They weren’t denied advancement because they were black; no, they were denied advancement because they weren’t. Equal Opportunity for some is not Equal Opportunity at all and it is a continuation of the system that the blacks, minorities, and yourself are decrying! Make the system equal for all. Make advancement dependent ONLY on hardwork and abilities. Race, gender, and religion should not be an issue at all.
Kathie’s, and my, anger is not directed towards the black community, it is directed toward those who are saying that because I am white I, or rather my family, held slaves. My father was the son of a share-cropper in Arkansas, his grandfather was a preacher who married an Indian (the American type). I don’t believe they had the money to have slaves. Reparation is the sins of the father being paid for by the sons (literally). At minimum ludicrous at maximum, stupid. There is not one culture in our history that has not held slaves, none. Some of my ancesters were slaves and some held slaves. Do I pay reparation for those that were held and do I get reparation for those who were held slaves? Do I get and receive appologies for this? Ridiculous!
sharpright7 says:
By the way, if my ancestors had owned slaves I would still not feel as though I owed any apology
Rick S says:
James,
No, blacks today do not have more rights than I do. It would have been better stated: “EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL, NOT JUST SOME!”. And as far as that goes, yes blacks do have more opportunity than I do. They have special college funds that I can’t tap into because of my race, advancement has been denied to people based on the fact that they are white not black even when the advancement exam results shows the white person scored better. There are “Special Opportunities” afforded minorities based on their minority that those not of that minority have. It is this to which I was referring. I don’t have the right to those opportunities because I don’t claim a minority citizenship.
James says:
I for one am sick and tired of being called a racist and being asked to appologize for something that I had nothing to do with!
Sharpright7, who exactly calls you a racist, and what does that have to do with this discussion?
As for apologizing for something you didn’t do, no one is asking you to do that. The U.S. Senate voted to apologize on behalf of the nation for what the nation has done. Obviously, that apology wasn’t issued on behalf of individual citizens alive today, none of whom were involved in slavery and most of whom weren’t involved in the Jim Crow century which was also part of the apology.
I am the decendent of poor scotch-irish imigrants ….
I’m sure that your Scotch-Irish immigrants, like mine, had to work hard to get ahead. But they had the benefit of being white. That meant not being chattel slaves and, later, not suffering the discrimination endured by black citizens during the century following slavery.
I am going to college not because I whined about how unfairly the world has treated me but because I work hard.
Do you believe in some racist stereotype about black college students not working hard? Or do you mistakenly believe that affirmative action means that unqualified or undeserving black students are being admitted to our colleges?
There are very few people that are not suffering from a long blood line of oppression. The only difference in most of those people and black people is that the black race does not seem to have the emotional maturity to move forward.
Nonsense. Here’s one difference: your Scotch-Irish immigrant ancestors were never enslaved, and in the years following slavery, while black families endured rampant discrimination which kept them from getting ahead and passing on a better life to the next generation, your ancestors were benefiting from massive federal government programs to build the (white) middle class in areas like housing, education, and jobs.
Why don’t these disgruntled people trace back the ancestory of both black and white people to see who exactly was involved in slavery instead of generalizing that it was every white person in america today that caused them hardship?
Just what do you think that research would show?
First of all, no white person in the U.S. today caused the hardships of slavery.
Secondly, most white citizens have ancestors who were here during slavery. All of those ancestors benefited from slavery in one way or another, and most were somehow complicit in slavery, at least by our current standards.
J G says:
I’m not going to suggest I can glean Kathie’s X-years of upbringing and attitudes such to suppose I can speak for (or about) her based on 4 paragraphs of content. But I can say that she reminds me of a question that has OFTEN been in my own mind over the course of my lifetime.
Growing up in a poor white neighborhood in Gary Indiana, I too, often wondered why my family was being held accountable for slavery. After all, both my parents were – like nearly all the people in my neighborhood – immigrants: poor polish and czech laborers who came to the US to work in the steel mills.
We worked and lived alongside many black American families. Many of them wonderful. Some not so. ON BOTH SIDES OF THE COLOR BARRIER.
Then bus-ing started in the 60s and 70s. Then the steel mills closed down in the 80s. Anyone who could get out of Gary did — the rest is a sad history of blight. But all through this time, I remember thinking: I got out. I learned to assimilate AND keep my heritage. So why not the blacks? Why shouldn’t the blacks?
In school, I was called “that Pollock.” Can’t recall anyone demanding I get called a “Polish American” on any forms or in conversation.
At jobs, I was told that speaking proper English would get me a better position and more respect. So I didn’t create my own “Pol-bonics,” intentionally misspelling and misspronouncing words to support my “own thang” because America (after all) owed me something.
Again, why not the blacks? Why couldn’t the blacks?
Do all living Caucasians owe black people for the wrongs of the wrongs of our forefathers? Fine. Give us the bill and like Kathie says, move on. Maybe then those African Americans who feel strongly about the issue can [finally] take the chip off their shoulder.
James says:
They weren’t denied advancement because they were black; no, they were denied advancement because they weren’t.
Rick, I agree that affirmative action policies challenge our core beliefs about individualism and a color-blind society. However, those white firefighters weren’t denied advancement. They simply weren’t advanced on the basis of a test which somehow passed white candidates and not black candidates. The reasons for that result are probably complex, and the city simply tried to find a more balanced approach to its promotion decisions.
Make advancement dependent ONLY on hardwork and abilities. Race, gender, and religion should not be an issue at all.
Rick, do you relax that principle enough to say that we should ignore the lingering racial discrimination in our society, which research consistently finds in employment and other contexts? Or should we try to do something about that, so that race truly isn’t a factor in advancement?
My father was the son of a share-cropper in Arkansas, his grandfather was a preacher who married an Indian (the American type). I don’t believe they had the money to have slaves.
Then you’d be surprised, Rick. Ministers would commonly own a slave in the antebellum United States, as would a great many middle-class people.
I agree that reparations is a troubling concept, for many reasons. But it’s hardly “ludicrous” to suggest that those who have inherited the benefits of slavery (which includes you and me) might have to turn some of that over to those who have inherited the disadvantages. It might be a terrible idea, but it’s not ridiculous.
James says:
By the way, if my ancestors had owned slaves I would still not feel as though I owed any apology
My ancestors did own slaves (as yours quite likely did, based on what you’ve said). I feel no need to offer anyone an apology for their actions, but I’m certainly sorry for what our ancestors did, and I have no problem with the nation apologizing for what it did.
blacks do have more opportunity than I do.
Rick, what doors are closed to you because of race? Do you believe you lack sufficient ways to pay for college, for instance? If so, then just consider that black Americans as a whole have only a fraction of the resources to pay for college that white Americans do, and that this is because of our history of slavery and discrimination. I would suggest that this, too, is troubling.
Tired of this BS says:
Look at it this way; the African American people are a lot better off in the US then what they would have been if they hadn’t came to America. Their own tribal leaders were the ones selling them to the Europeans in the first place.
I was a poor Caucasian or mix I don’t know nor do I care I am an American; many times I went to bed hungry. I have worked for everything that I have and would like to be able to enjoy after I retire; not give it away. You can feel guilty as long as you want; have you worked an honest day in your life?
James says:
Growing up in a poor white neighborhood in Gary Indiana, I too, often wondered why my family was being held accountable for slavery.
In what way was your family ever held accountable for slavery, J G?
both my parents were – like nearly all the people in my neighborhood – immigrants: poor polish and czech laborers who came to the US to work in the steel mills.
In that case, your family benefited substantially from slavery and discrimination. Why do you think the U.S. was an industrial nation at that point, with ample jobs for foreigners wanting to immigrate? Why do you think your immigrant ancestors were able to get ahead while black citizens were held back in those years? What about all those federal government programs in the early 20th century that were closed to blacks, while lifting so many immigrant families into the middle class?
I learned to assimilate AND keep my heritage. So why not the blacks? Why shouldn’t the blacks?
Could it be because your family, being white, was considered to be American–allowed to assimilate while being proud of their heritage? While black families were always seen as black, and therefore different, and were viewed with suspicion whether blending in or expressing pride in heritage?
James says:
I was a poor Caucasian or mix I don’t know nor do I care I am an American
Spoken like someone who has always been seen by others as white, or at least not as a racial minority. That’s a luxury not enjoyed by millions of your fellow citizens, who are labeled “black” or “Asian” or something else, every day, whether or not they simply want to be seen as American.
I have worked for everything that I have and would like to be able to enjoy after I retire; not give it away. You can feel guilty as long as you want; have you worked an honest day in your life?
I think we all feel that way, don’t we? We’ve worked hard for what we have, and want to enjoy it. None of us wants to feel guilty about what we have.
Yet the plain fact is that no American would have as much as they do without our nation’s history of slavery, and that same racial history has left some Americans with much less.
That’s a hard fact that we need to acknowledge. The rest–what, if anything, to do about it–is much more difficult.
J G says:
James, since you’re so good at quoting others, why not go read a sociology book and quote some of that.
If my parents benefited from the industrial age, then so (too) did the black family next store.
And again, if the whole point is that aLL U.S. Caucasians are solely guilty for every ill and short-change of the African-American population, then what do you suppose we should do about it?
Mauka says:
Does this mean I can demand an apology, and repremations, from North African nations that enslaved my white European ancestors?
James says:
J G, I have quite a few sociology books in my office now. What would you like me to quote to you?
It’s true that all Americans–including blacks–have benefited from the industrialization that slavery made possible. However, our history of slavery and race has also ensured that, on the whole, white Americans have benefited far more than black Americans.
As for guilt, J G, who says that whites bear guilt for anything?
James says:
Mauska, are you sure that your European ancestors were enslaved by North Africans? Relatively few today are descended from those enslaved in that trade.
However, if true, what’s your point? Do you believe that your family today still suffers from the effects of that enslavement, the way that black Americans as a whole still suffer consequences because of slavery and Jim Crow?
J G says:
Surely, you read Ms. Browne’s article? Or maybe she’s apologizing sans guilt.
Ski says:
We need to quit looking at an 18th and 19th century industry with a 21st century view. Slavery was an industry that was a part of life and normal for most people as Microsoft is for us today. Totally disgusting and appalling… absolutely! But in it’s day it was a standard way of doing things. Not only whites participated in the process, strong African tribes would sell the tribes they conquered to the slave traders as well. As others pointed out, holding slaves and being slaves is a part of nearly every culture on the planet.
There is not a person alive in the US today that had anything to do with the Slave Trade. Most whites today probably come from the mass immigrations of the early 1900’s. The oldest african-americans in this country are at closest grandchildren or great-grandchildren of slaves. The civil rights movements of the 60’s established equal rights for everyone. I was raised to not care about a person’s physical appearance, but rather to judge an individual by there attitude and abilities.
So sorry to Ms. Browne but I don’t believe dwelling on the past and trying to make up for something nobody alive today had anything to do with serves anything productive. Instead we should be focusing on stomping out the last of those prejudices that exist today. Focus instead on true equality for all. Sex and Race should simply be removed from all applications as they have no bearing on the individuals abilities.
Tired of this BS says:
Very well said Ski.
vietnam vet says:
I think James just likes typing and voicing HIS opinion.
Since both sides of my family moved here well after slavery was abolished (Germany and Scotland) I would like to know what statistical data base he is using for comments like “Secondly, most white citizens have ancestors who were here during slavery. All of those ancestors benefited from slavery in one way or another, and most were somehow complicit in slavery, at least by our current standards.”
I am still waiting for a major apology for the way my group was treated and compensation would be nice but not really expected.
You all are welcome to come and discuss this with me in Iraq if you so desire. Oh, just another country where people were abused.
Tired of this BS says:
James,
By the way; I only have a High School education because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I went to work for a $1.70 cent an hour job so how could I pay? I forgot to state when growing up and going to bed hungry; we had great neighbors that would give us food from their farm; they were Black. I respect everyone no matter of origin.
an immigrants son says:
Longshoreman philosopher Eric Hoffer once wrote that all great movements eventually become a business, then degenerate into a racket.
That is what has happened to the civil rights movement. It began with just demands for an end to state-mandated discrimination based on race, it turns into unjust demands for state mandated preferences, based on race.
Under affirmative action, white men are passed over for jobs and promotions in business and government, and denied admission to colleges and universities to which their grades and merits entitle them, because of their gender and race.
Now the racket becomes an extortion, called reparations, where even guilt ridden little white girls cry out.
My parents were immigrants, my father was a slave for the Germans, he overcame his hellish experience as did millions of other immigrants who escaped WWII.
They came to America, without family, they learned a new language, they learned a new culture, they worked, married, raised families, educated them, no one gave them anything, they made the most of what they had.
It makes me sick to hear others whine, what has happened to America?
Im 50 years old, this immigrants son has succeeded, thanks to liberals who push us to create a bigger gap between those they try to help (minorities with handouts) and our kids, my kids know that a 30 on the ACT gets them to the college of their choice, while an 18 gets a minority there, but dont ask me to hire them once they graduate….LOL
sharpright7 says:
who exactly calls you a racist, and what does that have to do with this discussion?
James, I will tell you who calls me a racist, check out the comments that the leftist press (cnn, nbc, etc.)makes about anyone who is white and disagrees with Obama about anything. You don’t think that undeserving mentally inferior black people get college degrees handed to them because they are black? I would like to present as an example Skip Gates. Do you think that that man is mature enough to have obtained a degree from Harvard on his own merit? And further more, look at the wealthy blacks who have benefited from slavery. I have news for you, slavery did no more for poor whites than illegal aliens do today. People were unable to get much needed employment due to lavery. I am in no way saying that slavery was rigt, I am just saying that there are wealthy blacks who benefited and poor whites that suffered because of slavery. Many poor whites did not live much differently than the slaves did, especially penniles imigrants. I still have american indian relatives on reservations here in the u.s. What about black calvary men that fought along side the whites against the american indians? Are they appologizing? All I am saying is that it is time to press forward and stop whining about the past.
James says:
Surely, you read Ms. Browne’s article? Or maybe she’s apologizing sans guilt.
Yes, I’m familiar with my cousin’s article, J G. And she isn’t advocating that Americans feel any personal guilty for their history. She’s simply endorsing the idea of the nation apologizing for what it’s done.
I don’t believe dwelling on the past and trying to make up for something nobody alive today had anything to do with serves anything productive. Instead we should be focusing on stomping out the last of those prejudices that exist today.
Ski, I like the idea of eradicating the racial prejudice which still exists in this country.
However, I’m not sure why you’re dismissing the consequences of the past which are still with us. Should we simply shrug our shoulders and say “too bad”? Even though it means that our country remains deeply divided by race, with white families having many times more wealth, for instance, than black families, and therefore a much easier time providing education and resources for the next generation? I can think of arguments for not addressing those disparities, but I’m not sure I understand simply dismissing them as unimportant.
Since both sides of my family moved here well after slavery was abolished (Germany and Scotland) I would like to know what statistical data base he is using for comments like “Secondly, most white citizens have ancestors who were here during slavery. All of those ancestors benefited from slavery in one way or another, and most were somehow complicit in slavery, at least by our current standards.”
“Vietnam Vet,” I’ll answer your question.
First, U.S. Census researchers have done the analysis and shown that most Americans have ancestors who were around at the founding of the United States (that is, settlers, rather than immigrants). Obviously, a much higher proportion have ancestors who were here before 1865.
Second, white citizens around during slavery benefited materially from slavery in a variety of ways. All consumers in this country benefited from cheaper products because of slavery. These included cotton clothing, of course, but also sugar, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and so on. Most citizens also found their livelihood improved because of slavery. For instance, the northern economy depended heavily on slavery both before the American Revolution, and between the revolution and the Civil War. I’d say that knowingly buying slave-produced products, and earning a living in part due to slavery, would be seen as a form of complicity in our society today.
I respect everyone no matter of origin.
I appreciate that, I really do. I realize that not everyone can say that, even today.
I can’t wait, though, for a day in this country’s history when people don’t say things like that as though it were a point of pride or helped them to score a point in an argument. This should be such a given that no one thinks to say it about themselves or anyone else.
JacklynD says:
Tiresome – its an excuse to be the victim. Every civilization and every continent has had slavery. Egypt, Africa, Asia, South America, etc. It is a barbaric and unfortunate practice but there is nothing unique. Africans sold their own into slavery.
Most of us have had ancestors wronged by someone. Should the Irish present England with a bill for the hundreds of years of oppression? Should the native indians in South America present a bill to Portugal and Spain?
Live today. Own what is yours to influence and drop the rest.
Sorry. There is a black president of the United States of America and black people participating in all professions. Today is today.
James says:
It makes me sick to hear others whine, what has happened to America?
It sounds as though your parents overcame quite a lot, and worked very hard, to achieve what they had.
Yet the fact is that they did so in a society which didn’t discriminate against them, at least in the ways in which it discriminated against black families.
I’m quite sympathetic to your concerns about affirmative action and other programs. Yet you dismiss the racial inequities which they attempt to address as if those issues were somehow irrelevant. What’s your solution?
my kids know that a 30 on the ACT gets them to the college of their choice, while an 18 gets a minority there, but dont ask me to hire them once they graduate….LOL
Those aren’t even close to the statistics on how much affirmative action affects college entrance.
Are you saying that you’ll deliberately discriminate against non-white job applicants? Or am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying that non-white applicants are somehow inherently unqualified?
an immigrants son says:
Im an atheist but I do reference the bible for historical perspectives, remember those who do not read history and understand it are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Everything’s Upside Down
Part of the punishment to come upon our people was that: “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail” (Deut. 28:43-44).
Today that’s happening! It’s going on right before our eyes! Mass voter registration, “social mobility,” and “economic empowerment” are running us right out of our own neighborhoods, public office and the work place! The minorities in our midst have turned the tables and reversed the roles – with our help! How sick! Reverse discrimination is the law of the land. Quotas condemn and exclude our own people. The WASPs are being chased by the “Canaanites!”
Minorities Out of Control
The Gentile animals stalk our land, rob us of our children, and steal us blind (Lev. 26:22)! We’re afraid to leave our homes, our streets are unsafe to stroll, and our inner cities are a wasteland! Our prisons are overflowing, welfare is overtaxed, and the white man’s overburdened. Everywhere we look, the terror and devastation testify we’re being CURSED FOR DISOBEDIENCE! (Deut. 28:15).
Jeanette says:
James,
You may be a bit too close to your “cousin”, the author, to recognize that this is a non-issue to most Americans, no matter what their color or heritage. It is just silly, not to mention arrogant as hell, to apologize, or make financial reparations, for something we didn’t do.
an immigrants son says:
James what Im saying is that if you go in with a score of 18, you are not coming out much smarter, its a fact. There are minorities that go in who have the grades, lets keep it that way for everyone.
James says:
check out the comments that the leftist press (cnn, nbc, etc.)makes about anyone who is white and disagrees with Obama about anything.
I certainly hope that the “leftist press” doesn’t say that anyone who disagrees with the president about anything is a racist.
ou don’t think that undeserving mentally inferior black people get college degrees handed to them because they are black?
No, I really don’t.
I would like to present as an example Skip Gates. Do you think that that man is mature enough to have obtained a degree from Harvard on his own merit?
I don’t believe that Professor Gates has a degree from Harvard. I believe his undergraduate work was elsewhere, and that his Ph.D. is from Yale.
However, I can assure you that Gates is one of the foremost scholars of his generation. I’m not in a position to judge his maturity, but I can also assure you that maturity is in no way a prerequisite for a degree from Harvard.
slavery did no more for poor whites than illegal aliens do today.
Slavery was the mainstay of the U.S. economy until 1865, and allowed the industrialization of our economy which has served us so well ever since. It has permitted generations of poor, hard-working whites to get ahead.
People were unable to get much needed employment due to lavery.
No, slavery was largely responsible for the vast numbers of jobs available in this country which drove immigration for generations.
Many poor whites did not live much differently than the slaves did, especially penniles imigrants.
Living in poverty is quite different from chattel slavery. Those poor whites weren’t routinely beaten or killed as punishment, forced to mate and kept from their spouses and children, and so on.
All I am saying is that it is time to press forward and stop whining about the past.
I agree that whining isn’t appropriate, and that we need to find constructive ways to move forward. But believing in a mythologized history and ignoring its consequences won’t achieve that.
an immigrants son says:
James put somewhat paraphrase MLK, I will judge his children by their character and grades not by the color of their skin, why does the gov want me to give them a pass for the color of their skin?
Nick says:
Quick fact check here. Slavery was started by dutch spice traders who showed up to find africans for sale by OTHER AFRICANS. And yes, Americans bought them up and that was wrong too. I dont recall anytime in history where americans went to war and then forced people into slavery but thats what happend in the first place so should they all be sorry too? In fact, hasnt virtually ever ethnic background held down some other one at some point in history? Should we all be sorry for that too? What about native americans? We just killed most of them so they got some land and casinos. The world is a tuff place, get a good look at Africa as a whole these days its constant conflict. Either race, religion or real estate, and so time marches on. Rapes of children, genocide, is that our fault too? I’m a mutt myself, american to the core. I have black friends (and I call them black because they call me white, im kinda beige I think)and I dont see any of them wishing that we were all soooo sorry. Of course they had ancestors who worked their collective butts off to better their position. Much like mine did, and the rest of the collective folk who are not constantly looking for the new (or old as this case is) excuse for their lack of proformance. Get over your guilt lady. I’ll watch your film if it makes it to netflix…
sharpright7 says:
Maybe another civil war would finaly settle things. Personally, I would prefer that americans ban together to protect the great country that we all enjoy. i don’t see many of the radicals that think they are cute when they burn their own flag moving to other countries (although they should).
James says:
Most of us have had ancestors wronged by someone. Should the Irish present England with a bill for the hundreds of years of oppression?
That’s a matter for British society, Jacklyn, but they should at least ask whether the Irish are materially disadvantaged today because of specific wrongs committed by Britain as a nation. That’s the issue with acknowledging slavery in the U.S. today.
Live today. Own what is yours to influence and drop the rest.
That’s a great argument, since we do have the choice to do whatever we want about the consequences of slavery and racism today.
Most things we could consider doing would be, in my mind, ill-advised, including reparations for slavery. But we have to decide what to do with what we’ve inherited.
Sorry. There is a black president of the United States of America and black people participating in all professions. Today is today.
You say this as if black people now had equal opportunities to participate in these professions. Yet their disproportionately small numbers would seem to prove this isn’t the case.
Clearly our nation hasn’t eliminated racial inequities, and denying that fact won’t help us to address them.
Inheriting the Trade | CNN commentary by Traces of the Trade director says:
[...] readers to do two things. First, read it. Second, go to our cousin James DeWolf Perry’s blog, The Living Consequences, and read the many reactions to Katrina’s article there. I’m sure you’ll find [...]
an immigrants son says:
Nick
Slavery was practiced in Africa before the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade. Slavery and the slave trade were an integral part of African societies and states which supplied the Arab world with enslaved people for centuries before the arrival of the Europeans. The African slave trade provided a large number of slaves to Europeans and their African agents
sharpright7 says:
P.S. Maybe I am no authority on Gates, but maturity and the ability to not act like a baby having a tantrum should certainly be a part of the attributes acquired from a college degree. If Gates is one of the foremost scholars of his generation his generation is in big trouble!
James says:
Mass voter registration, “social mobility,” and “economic empowerment” are running us right out of our own neighborhoods, public office and the work place!
Right ….
You may be a bit too close to your “cousin”, the author, to recognize that this is a non-issue to most Americans, no matter what their color or heritage.
Thanks, Jeanette. I’m well aware, though, that while this is an important issue for millions of Americans, white and black, it’s a non-issue for far more of us.
It is just silly, not to mention arrogant as hell, to apologize, or make financial reparations, for something we didn’t do.
I don’t think it’s “silly” for the nation to apologize for what it’s done.
Nor do I think it’s “silly” for people (and I’m not one of them) to advocate financial reparations for something we’ve inherited.
I will judge his children by their character and grades not by the color of their skin, why does the gov want me to give them a pass for the color of their skin?
No one should receive a “pass” for the color of their skin. I’m not endorsing affirmative action, but we know that the average black student (for instance) is disadvantaged in reaching higher education because of race. It’s not crazy for people to want to find ways to compensate, at least in part, for that disadvantage.
James says:
Whew. It’s a little busy in here, isn’t it?
Quick fact check here. Slavery was started by dutch spice traders who showed up to find africans for sale by OTHER AFRICANS.
Yes, Nick, the slave trade was started by Europeans who traded for slaves with willing African participants. I’m a big believer in acknowledging this, since I believe it shows how this wasn’t a sin committed by a few people or by any particular race of people.
And yes, Americans bought them up and that was wrong too.
It was very wrong, and Americans also did plenty of trading for slaves in Africa, too.
In fact, hasnt virtually ever ethnic background held down some other one at some point in history?
This is true, Nick, and it’s a very important consideration in all this.
On the other hand, the majority of Americans have not had their ethnic group held back by our own nation, and not in a way that still significantly disadvantages them today.
I have black friends … and I dont see any of them wishing that we were all soooo sorry.
I don’t think anyone believes we should waste time feeling sorry for things we haven’t done, do they?
I’ll watch your film if it makes it to netflix…
You’re unlikely to see it on Netflix, but it has aired on PBS and is rebroadcast on local stations when they choose to do so. It’s also show frequently in venues around the country, so anyone who genuinely wants to see it can find a way.
James says:
I would prefer that americans ban together to protect the great country that we all enjoy.
I don’t believe this is an either-or situation. We can all be united and maintain our great country, even while we acknowledge its history and the ways in which that history affects us differently today.
an immigrants son says:
James we are doing them and our country a bigger disservice by sending them to higher education, we are only bringing ourselves down.
This is an exageration, I had a retarded brother, do you think it would be a ggod idea to send him to regular schools or should he have gone to the special education ones?
The same applies, should a kid struggling to make regular grades be selected for advanced classes?
JacklynD says:
James: You can never correct history. Of course, the Irish were materially disadvantaged by England’s oppression. My family lost our lands and fishing fleet. Many starved to death and died of TB due to the improverished conditions imposed by England. You’re wallowing in self pity and indignation. White people are not the cause of all of your problems.
You will never find 100% equality – not for races,not for nationalities, not for gender, not for religion, not for ugly people, not for fat people, not for old people. Life is not fair.
Rejoice that you live in the United States of America at this time because historically this is nirvana on earth and whining because of past injustices without enjoying what is here now is pathetic.
an immigrants son says:
The slave trade in Africa existed for thousands of years. The first main route passed through the Sahara, tying in to the Arab slave trade. After the European Age of Exploration, African slaves became part of the Atlantic slave trade, from which comes the modern, Western conception of slavery as an institution of African-descended slaves and non-African slave owners. Despite its illegality, slavery continues in some parts of the world, including Africa.
Elikia M’bokolo, April 1998, Le Monde diplomatique. Quote:”The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. At least ten centuries of slavery for the benefit of the Muslim countries (from the ninth to the nineteenth).” He continues: “Four million slaves exported via the Red Sea, another four million through the Swahili ports of the Indian Ocean, perhaps as many as nine million along the trans-Saharan caravan route, and eleven to twenty million (depending on the author) across the Atlantic Ocean
Slavery existed long before the white man!!@!!!
Abiye says:
Wow, James I feel sorry for having to deal with these ignorant people who are so stuck in the ways they were force fed as children. Do they not realize that they have been lied too also? All of you are also victims of this sham, not to the extent of enslaved people and their descendants but still all their anger is directed toward black people and they have a deep resentment of not just black people but people of clear while it is clear that the darker the person is the more resentment. This anger needs to be redirected towards the lies that they were fed. Acknowledging and spreading the truth about the evil of slavery does not mean that you or your family did not work hard for what they have but it realizes that in order for you to take the path you did someone had to suffer. These people need to look around and realize that they are fighting for a racist cause, why else would 99.99% of the people that share your beliefs be white? I hope these people can find it in themselves to erase the hate they have and realize that they do not know what true happiness is with hate in their hearts.
Jeanette says:
James,
Apologizing is a non-issue since one can’t legitimately apologize for something one did not do. Certainly the DA won’t indict the burglar’s brother; the slanderer’s daughter has committed no tort. Personal responsibility is the order of the day, and none of us are personally responsible for slavery. Those rogue citizens are long since gone, and we are a better country for their passing.
Financial reparations are a non-issue since most honest people wouldn’t take money for suffering they haven’t endured. Further, the reasonable man does not settle a bill that he does not owe.
Finally, and most unfortunately, we must consider that a discussion such as this has a lasting negative effect on racial relations among Americans. We need opportunities to unite as a country. A discussion like this only serves to divide us further.
Frank says:
Seems to me,..she better have lots of money to give to black people who feel they need it. Don’t tax me on the BS,…better yet,.get them off welfare,.get them some jobs!!!!!!!!!
Frank says:
Why waste time on this,..how ignorant of her,..she is brainless. Wants to stir up more racism!
an immigrants son says:
“I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races—that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race.” – Abraham Lincoln
Jeanette says:
“Whew. It’s a little busy in here, isn’t it?”
Yes James, you are working very hard…and you are maintaining civility. Impressive.
Even though we do not share the same viewpoint on this issue, I am intrigued with the argument.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye you sound pretty ignorant yourself, tell me, or tell all of us, all of the great things that were built by slaves, and tell us how this country could not have built it without them or survived?
The truth is Abiye, there is nothing the slave built or has done that this country needs or needed
Tired of this BS says:
Abiye
Well stated by a true rasict; did you vote by race or by your convictions?
Natalie says:
The injustice did not stop with slavery! Had all the hate stopped with slavery, we are a creative and hard working people, we would be much further along, However, there was “reconstruction”, jim crow, redlining in housing, discrimination in employment and education. Tell me why & how should we just get over it? Our holocaust continues to this day, in so many ways overt & covert. And I’m no VICTIM!
James says:
James we are doing them and our country a bigger disservice by sending them to higher education, we are only bringing ourselves down.
“Them”? Do you mean black students? Colleges and universities only accept fully qualified students, even if they may use race in choosing among those who are qualified.
Of course, the Irish were materially disadvantaged by England’s oppression.
Yes, but the question was, are the Irish materially disadvantaged by that history today?
You’re wallowing in self pity and indignation. White people are not the cause of all of your problems.
Jacklyn, you seem to be assuming that I’m black.
whining because of past injustices without enjoying what is here now is pathetic.
I don’t hear anyone whining, Jacklyn. I hear people demanding that racial injustices be addressed.
Slavery existed long before the white man!!
Very true. This history isn’t about race, except insofar as race was introduced along the way as a particular means of reinforcing the institution of slavery.
James I feel sorry for having to deal with these ignorant people who are so stuck in the ways they were force fed as children. Do they not realize that they have been lied too also?
No, Abiye, they don’t realize it. I’ve spent a lot of time speaking with groups about this topic, and the misconceptions are firmly in place with most Americans. I’m firmly convinced that these are sincere objections being raised, at least in most cases.
Acknowledging and spreading the truth about the evil of slavery does not mean that you or your family did not work hard for what they have but it realizes that in order for you to take the path you did someone had to suffer.
It’s a profound truth, Abiye, but not one that many people want to hear. It challenges their cherished beliefs that they and their families have what they have because of their own efforts, and nothing more. Despite what is written in the history books.
Apologizing is a non-issue since one can’t legitimately apologize for something one did not do.
How many times do I have to say this? None of us needs to (or could) apologize for slavery. Yet our nation surely can, since it did the things in question.
If you don’t care much about whether an institution like the U.S. apologizes for its actions, then just don’t pay attention.
Those rogue citizens are long since gone ….
What rogue citizens? You make it sound as if slavery were a pastime of a few bad apples, instead of national policy, visible in virtually every community in the nation in its day and a mainstay of the economy participated in by most citizens.
Financial reparations are a non-issue since most honest people wouldn’t take money for suffering they haven’t endured.
I believe the reparations legislation pending before Congress is primarily aimed at reparations for present injustice due to this history, not for the suffering of people long dead.
Kel says:
Fact: There is no one alive today that is respondsible for any part of slavery in U.S. history. Fact: There is no one alive today that was a slave in the U.S.. If there were, I would eagerly vote to make monetary restitution to that person and apologize. No one is going to pay any of us for something that our ancestors did or suffered at the hands of evil men. Nor should they! James, to be blunt, you and your cousin are masterful at the skill of manipulation. I would dare say that you are so good at it, that neither of you even know that you are doing it. “Denial is not just a river in Egypt”. You are not fighting racism, you are in fact fanning the flames of racism, by grouping races to say that this one owes that one. You can spin it all you want, but at the end of the day all you are doing is encouraging more racism! “This subject is divisive by nature. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig”..
James says:
James, you are working very hard…and you are maintaining civility. Impressive.
Even though we do not share the same viewpoint on this issue, I am intrigued with the argument.
Thanks, Jeanette. I appreciate the kind words, and even though we disagree, I’m grateful that you’re participating here.
Abiye you sound pretty ignorant yourself, tell me, or tell all of us, all of the great things that were built by slaves, and tell us how this country could not have built it without them or survived?
“An Immigrant’s Son,” I should probably stop responding to you after your quotation from Lincoln, which I can only assume you meant approvingly.
However, you should know that slavery was essential to the colonial American economy. As a U.S. president once said, businesses connected directly to slavery were “essential” to the prosperity which allowed us to gain independence.
Slavery was also the dominant factor in the growth of the U.S. economy between the American Revolution and the Civil War. Finally, slavery is what permitted us to industrialize, and allowed the U.S. economy to become the leading economy in the world today.
an immigrants son says:
Natalie you have been fed the liberal BS and you ate to much, redlining did not exist, back then banks did not give money to people who could not pay it back, when you lend money to people who cant pay it back, it ends up pretty much like what he got. a financial mess, toxic loans, record foreclosures, of course now you blame it on the lender, not the gov that forced them to make the loans.
35 Counties Account for 50% of Foreclosures
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/35-counties-account-50-foreclosures
I wonder who these people are?
James says:
Well stated by a true rasict; did you vote by race or by your convictions?
There’s nothing in what Abiye said to suggest that she votes based on race. In fact, her comment was very open-minded, suggesting that she views people of all races as inherently equal, and can see how much everyone has been impacted by racism.
James says:
redlining did not exist
Redlining is a well-documented historical phenomenon. This is a marvelous example of the kind of historical revisionism which encourages racial divisiveness today.
I wonder who these people are?
Actually, many of those are predominantly white counties. Nevertheless, it’s true that the current recession has hit black families disproportionately hard.
an immigrants son says:
Psst James, in case you forgot, there was a little thing called a civil war that pretty much devastated the south, the south would have been better off with unionized hillbillies. I dont recall any slave working in any industry other than farming or cotton picking, most factories were in the northwest.
Im sorry you are offended by the words of Lincoln.
an immigrants son says:
James do you work for a bank?
Jeanette says:
James,
“What rogue citizens?”
I meant those individuals who engaged in the slave trade. My argument is regarding apologizing and making financial reparations for slavery; it is limited to that issue.
When I wrote “Financial reparations are a non-issue since most honest people wouldn’t take money for suffering they haven’t endured.” I was referring to African Americans alive today regarding suffering from slavery. I based this opinion on anecdotal evidence derived through my own interactions with a diverse population. Certainly not scientifically significant, I realize.
To all: It is distressing to see the name calling and insulting among the debaters here. It takes a little more time to craft a thoughtful argument, but doing so provides a more enriching experience. No matter what our opinion on this issue, surely we can dialogue civilly and intelligently.
Abiye says:
an immigrants son, please do your research and do not breed your ignorance, your statements are simply false.
Abiye says:
I wonder why people who are so outraged by this article and the comments of myself, james and others have littered this page with their ignorant comments, if you feel that this wrong then dont read it!
Abiye says:
These comments show me that this country has a lonnnnggg way to go if were are every going to stand together as equals, the inherited hatred must end!
P.S. James, I am a man, no offense taken.
Nick says:
I have personally sat in board meetings where the question of how “Black” a potential borrower was came up in the decision making process. I spent the last decade underwriting large commercial loans and the simple reason that question was asked (and consider that one of the guys in the room was also black)was because given court action we were looking for every potential avenue that borrower may use to their advantage. The fear from the board meing that we would lend a few million and the borrower would say they didnt fully understand the terms, that they were taken advantage of by “The man”. Now I personally went out of my way for many years to not mention the race of my particular borrowers when I was fighting to get them approved but that IS the swing back in the right direction that makes equality happen over time. There are many Blacks that hate white people…and the reverse is also true. Some its fear, some its ignorance, but now IS the time to move forward and just take note of the historcal facts. yes it happend, and in some places still does. And it IS harder for a white student to get some scholarships and into some places because they are WHITE. It’s time to stop and just adimt that we are different but try to work towards a common goal of good things for all who are willing to work for them.
Racism does exist today, but on BOTH sides of the fence people…
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, I need to do research, think again, what research have you done?
I will ask you once again, what was built off the backs of slaves that would not exist without them?
The only thing slavery has brought this country is problems.
Before you call someone ignorant look at your own ignornce!
Abiye says:
It is very easy to claim that racism exists on both sides when you are white. The hard thing to do is admit your privilege, aside from race I admit that compared to many of my brothers and sisters in the world I am very privileged. It is not an easy thing to do, but life is not easy.
an immigrants son says:
Nick I know what you are saying, my wife is a VP for lending and all of their problem in foreclosures are for that exact same reason, they should have taken a CRA hit in hindsight!
Abiye says:
here you go an immigrants son
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/02/slaves.white.house/index.html
Abiye says:
you need more?
Jeanette says:
Wow.
Abiye,
It is not accurate to assert that one’s arguments are made simply because one is white. That seems a bit racist…don’t you think?
I certainly cannot claim to come from privilege. My family was working poor, and we were one of a few white families in a predominantly Mexican, Black and American Indian neighborhood. Trust me, I understand that it is no fun being the minority and racism exists on all sides.
Abiye says:
Jeanette, you’re missing my point, maybe I wasnt clear. I meant that if 99.99% percent of the people supporting your cause are of a certain race or group then maybe you should reexamine what you’re fighting for. I’m sorry if I was not clear but please do not call me a racist.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, OMG we would never have been able to build the Whitehouse…LOL
Like I asked you, what did slaves bring to the table that would not have been able to build without them.
Abiye, I already know of slave abilities to build, the Arabs imported them to build pyramids.
In America we found that skilled union labor is much better than slave labor
Abiye says:
Also I am not saying I come from privilege, my family has nothing and I am working my way up to make a good life for myself. I mean that compared to many of my brothers and sisters around the world fighting starvation and poverty I can consider myself privileged.
Abiye says:
It was built with the work of slaves so how can you claim this country could build it without slaves? You have no proof therefore your argument is nonsense.
Nick says:
no doubt…well said Jeanette, I think that about covers what I was trying to get out.
Abiye, You have no idea what my struggle in life has been much as I do not know yours. This is what I was getting at, the differences are there but it is time to look ahead together was all I was saying…
Abiye says:
once again I can give you more proof, just ask…
James says:
in case you forgot, there was a little thing called a civil war that pretty much devastated the south, the south would have been better off with unionized hillbillies. I dont recall any slave working in any industry other than farming or cotton picking
Actually, it was the North which industrialized on the basis of southern slavery during the antebellum period. It’s a myth that most of the benefits of slavery accrued to wealthy, white southerners.
James do you work for a bank?
No.
I meant those individuals who engaged in the slave trade. My argument is regarding apologizing and making financial reparations for slavery; it is limited to that issue.
Fair enough, Jeanette. In terms of the slave trade, while relatively few Americans practiced it, a great many citizens supported the slave trade in the regions which engaged in trading (primarily the North).
As for slavery, it was widely practiced in both North and South. Neither slavery nor the slave trade was limited to a few rogue individuals, but were commonly practiced and accepted. That’s all I meant to say.
James, I am a man, no offense taken.
I’m so sorry, Abiye! I’m working far too quickly at the moment, and I never should have made that assumption!
The only thing slavery has brought this country is problems.
Read what I’ve written. Slavery built the U.S. economy.
I certainly cannot claim to come from privilege. My family was working poor, and we were one of a few white families in a predominantly Mexican, Black and American Indian neighborhood.
Might it be more accurate to say, Jeanette, that like all of us, you come from privilege in some ways, and from lack of privilege in others? After all, I assume most of your neighbors were also working poor, and some of them have no doubt faced discrimination in their lives that whites, even poor whites, do not.
In America we found that skilled union labor is much better than slave labor
And yet we gave up slavery only at the point of a gun, and were able to have union labor only after slavery permitted us to build industries.
Nick says:
Your joking right Abiye? You know full and well that the white house could have been built without slave labor….
Abiye says:
Nick, I am all for looking to the future and making sure we can all be equal but I will not forget an unreconciled past of this country, thats a disrespect to my ancestors who died with no recognition
Abiye says:
No I dont and neither do you because it did not happen. Please be real.
Abiye says:
I must get back to work now, too much slacking…Thank you for your kind words James
an immigrants son says:
Nick you cant argue with someone who cant read and comprehend what she posted a link to, it says that slaves HELPED build the whitehouse, she nelieves that it reads Slaves BUILT the whitehouse LOL.
Nick says:
Thats not looking towards the future Abiye, your just dwelling on these individule points and not looking at the bigger picture. How many of us (and I’m grouping myself into that just to make you feel better) need to say sorry? What is it you want? Give me a clear picture of how you think white america needs to “reconcile” and give reconition to your ancestors so you can actual get that HUGE chip off the shoulder??
Abiye says:
immigrants son. First I am a man, secondly I never said slaves built the white house on their own. Your attempts to find holes in my argument show how your lack of maturity to carry on a healthy discussion with adults. I am a college student and one of my majors is black studies. For the past 3 years I have studied the affects of racism in this country and how it is all tied to the slave trade. If the US during the slave trade was to pay the minimum wage to every single enslaved person the economic would have been belly up. Also I want to make it clear that the white house example is a metaphor for what the slave trade built in this country. The fact that the nation’s capitol was built using slave labor is a testament to slavery’s power.
Jeanette says:
Abiye,
Please re-read my comment. I did not call you a racist.
You may want to consider your comment “if 99.99% percent of the people supporting your cause are of a certain race or group then maybe you should reexamine what you’re fighting for”.
As a matter of fact, 96% of blacks who voted, voted for Obama. Should African Americans re-examine their choice for President simply because most voted for an African American candidate?
Abiye says:
OK Nick let me make it clear. I think the most important thing that needs to happen is curriculum regarding africa and the slave trade in schools needs to overhauled with the truth. THAT IS WHAT I’M FIGHTING FOR.
Abiye says:
Jeanette, but did 96% of obamas votes come from black people? No they came from a diverse group of people. Thats my point
Abiye says:
Jeanette, I appreciate your opinion and how you address mine very compassionately and politely like human beings should, unlike some of the people in here who choose to make it a personal attack.
an immigrants son says:
James slavery may have helped build the US economy for a while, what ever it did help was quickly erased with a war, our greatest growth did not occur during that period, it was by far greater after slavery!!!!!!!!
And once again by saying helped by no means, means that we could not have done it without slavery.
When I asked you whether you work in a bank, its because my wife is VP for ending and I know first hand how and what redlining was, and its a farce, every business identifies their business, and what is a banks business? Lending, high risk low risk, areas of growth areas of decline, what areas were synonymous with decline back the and today?
Nick says:
Ok….I dont see any issue with that. What are we getting so wrong in the clases these days? This country was NOT built by black people initally, it was stolen from the native americans by europeans running away from religous prosecution. We systematicaly took it all by trading or killing our way across the country. FYI, thats what people have done since the dawn of time!! Race, religion, or real estate (aka natural resources) is why we fight. We fight still over these same issues. Isnt it fair to think that if we can evolve socially then its going to need to come from the direction of we were all wrong at one point and now we need to move ahead? What are they telling everyon e in class thats got you sooo upset? Why do you feel so left out or wronged?
Jeanette says:
James,
Its not fair to minimize the racism I suffered simply because you assume others suffered worse. The color of the victim of cannot be used as a measure of the severity of that treatment.
I would also assert that my comments where addressed to Abiye. He is surely capable of crafting a response.
Nick says:
Sorry, that last comment was an answer to Abyie. And I hope my passion on this topic isnt taken as any personal attack
Abiye says:
Nick, you take it to an extreme. ACKNOWLEDGMENT is the key. Although the US has decided to apologize which is great, we still continue to teach lies about slavery to our children in school. We teach children that the North was good and pure and the South was evil. Not the case, there were many in the South and were pure and many in the North that were evil. No debate there.
Abiye says:
Im sorry Nick that was directed towards an immigrants son who claimed that I cannot read or comprehend an article I posted because he disagrees with it, I have no issue with you.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, you seem to have the maturity hang up if you feel you need to bring it up.
Lets go back to my original question I asked you what did slaves do that would not have been if not for them, and you posted the whitehouse, I say BS, now you claim that minimum wage would have bancrupted America, all I have to say is OMG, how can I have an intelligent discussion with you? How did we manage to get where we are at without slavery, you should be a proponent of returning this country back to slavery!
Tired of this BS says:
Abiye,
You are a racist, no doubt; people like you will not allow equality. By the way how old are you and what country are you from?
Abiye says:
Immigrants son, you seem to misconstrue my comments into what you want them to be. I said if enslaved people were actually not enslaved and paid the minimum wage this country would be bankrupt because the only way this country built what is has was through the exploitation of people, black, native american, etc. I’m eager to see how you’ll twist this one.
Abiye says:
I am 22, and I am from the US. And no I am not a racist and your personal attacks are only a projection of your hatred.
James says:
James slavery may have helped build the US economy for a while, what ever it did help was quickly erased with a war
No, the foundations of the U.S. economy laid during the colonial and antebellum periods served us in good stead afterward. The U.S. did not build up an economy from scratch after 1865. Much of the economy was intact, and we were able to recover with the aid of an industrial base and skilled labor force.
Most importantly, as I’ve said, the U.S. industrialized prior to the Civil War, and because of slavery, and that fact did not change because of the war.
our greatest growth did not occur during that period, it was by far greater after slavery!!!!!!!!
I don’t know what economic histories you’ve read, but our critical economic development came prior to the Civil War.
by saying helped by no means, means that we could not have done it without slavery.
We could not have gained independence from Britain without slavery.
We could not have industrialized without slavery.
my wife is VP for ending and I know first hand how and what redlining was, and its a farce
Really? How does your wife’s experience in recent years tell you anything about redlining in our nation’s history?
Redlining was a common practice, based largely on racism and racist stereotypes. The profit motive didn’t win the day in that case, any more than it did in hiring or education.
Was it profitable not to hire the most qualified workers? No. Yet businesses refused to hire blacks for all but menial positions for generations.
What are we getting so wrong in the clases these days?
That slavery was as much a northern institution as a southern one?
That slavery was central to U.S. history, and to the development of the U.S. economy? Your own, adamant objections demonstrate that we’re still passing along myths about this history.
Its not fair to minimize the racism I suffered simply because you assume others suffered worse.
I don’t mean to minimize it at all, Jeanette. I simply mean to say that everyone enjoys a bundle of privileges and disadvantages, in various combinations, and that those who are non-white were disadvantage in one, particular way that whites were not.
Jeanette says:
Abiye,
I too appreciate your manners and am enjoying our professional discussion.
I guess I think it is normal, and perhaps innate, to a degree, to vote for, or to align with, those persons whom with you feel most familiar. Ethnocentrism is natural to a degree.
But I think we all must be careful assuming that we know how and why others arrive at their decisions and opinions. Certainly polite and reasonable people ask appropriate questions and actively listen and consider the answers given.
Tired of this BS says:
Abiye,
Stupid is as Stupid does. Now you show your igorance; by accusing attacks.
I hate people that want something for nothing; do you have a job; whether they be Black; White or little Green martians.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, if we would have been bancrupt then americas greatest moments were behind us after the civil war, slavery did nothing for this country.
Slave owners probably paid more for slaves then he would have if he just hired Mexicans!
Abiye says:
saying that i cannot read, and calling me a racist is a personal attack. Its okay though, dirt off my shoulder
Abiye says:
Immigrants son, your comments are offensive to anyone with a free mind.
Jeanette says:
James,
Yes, I agree that historically Caucasians warranted better treatment in general. To deny that is to deny history. However, I would argue that women, no matter their color, have suffered, and continue to suffer, at the hands of men (and ironically, often other women) throughout the world. As a woman, I do not want an apology, nor financial reparations.
I just want to abuse to end.
Jeanette says:
Immigrants son:
Would your father be proud of your contribution to this discussion?
Natalie says:
I understand why some folks are not aware of the many contributions of blacks to our country. True history regarding our contributions is often omitted from our nations school books. To find information takes research and a sense of curiosity. Our country has a great and troubling past and it’s history, when it comes to dealing with anyone who isn’t anglo is bad. But other races with fairer skin tones can more easily blend in and can assimilate, change a name and “pass” for white. Not so for most African Americans. We are judged before we open our mouths. There has been a sustained, systemic, attack on blacks since we were brought here as slaves. We can no more get over our holocaust than the Jewish people can get over theirs….we should never forget.
Tired of this BS says:
Wow, James I feel sorry for having to deal with these ignorant people who are so stuck in the ways they were force fed as children. When someone punches me I’ll puncking back. My father fought in War War I, my brother in Korean. I have lived many more years with nothing then you are old. Don’t take of ingnorance until you lived the world.
an immigrants son says:
James you have your opinions which I not only disagree with, but can tell you that common sense would tell you that slavery did not create or get this country to where it is at. In fact you have no idea where we would be today without slavery!
Abiye says:
Jeanette, thank you for bringing it up because it is an issue that it often left out. Sometimes I question how much of a change I could bring while leaving out the issues of women. The way we treat each other in the world comes from how we treat women. If we have no respect for the people who give us life then how can we ever have respect for each other?
Abiye says:
Neither do you immigrants son, but we do know where were at now. Please come back to reality and leave the world of what if.
Nick says:
I want to say before I leave for today that I think its a pleasure to hear the other points of view. I get the differences we all have but its nice that we can try to understand eachother.
an immigrants son says:
Jeanette why is it when a simple question is asked no one can answer it? All Im asking is for the contribution to which they all claim this country would not have existed without slavery and all I get is name calling. Im not trying to be a racist just a realist, Im comfortable knowing that I would be nothing without this country, Im not out to demonize it, this country is great because of the sum of the pieces. Slavery was negative piece and continues today as evident by this discussion.
Abiye says:
immigrants son, i hope this answers it
http://teachers.yale.edu/curriculum/search/viewer.php?id=houston_03.01.03_g
Abiye says:
I love this country so much that I will not allow to continue to spread lies and hate. I am a true patriot!
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, read your website and come back and tell me why America would not be the country it is today because of what you read in that study, Im not going to read it for you.
Dude says:
I couldn’t get Katrina Brown to publish my comments on her site. I suppose the outrage against reparations has been more than she expected. If she feels so guilty about her ancestors enslaving blacks then she can give all her money to the NAACP and take a vow of poverty. The most disabling attitude a minority (or anyone) can have is resentment that someone owes them something, or blaming others for things that happen rather than accepting that they themselves are ultimately responsible for their own success or failure. Actually I hope reparations becomes a bigger topic. I hope you Democrats keep pushing it. It would guarantee a republican takeover of congress and the presidency, the backlash would be so tremendous
Abiye says:
Before I go, TiredofBS, I have lived the world. I am the son of immigrant parents and I have traveled all over the world. I am not ignorant and never put myself above anyone.
Abiye says:
immigrant son, of course I read it, I don’t see how much clearer it could be.
Abiye says:
“Without the contributions of slaves performing the necessary jobs that were needed to build the United States, it would not have been develop into a country. In the maritime industry, slave labor was needed to load, unload, and transport goods around the United States and abroad. In the South slave labor was necessary to clear the fields, plant, tend, and harvest the crops, as well as transport them to market. The enslaved performed all kinds of jobs within the United States. Not only did African Americans help to build this country, they fought for its freedom as well. African Americans have fought in all wars from the American Revolution to our present war. Slaves and runaway slaves helped to explore the area that would become the United States.”
Abiye says:
Of course no one group did it by themselves but your perception of who built this country is certainly skewed.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
do you think slavery was free labor? It cost to house them and feed them, slave owners had to keep slaves healthy otherwise they were useless. On the other hand casual labor cost them less and they did not pay medical expenses.
Slaves or blacks in wars were not any ground breakers, look at the facts and casualties.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
not to mention you had to pay for them out front, it may have been cheaper to hire them here, the real problem was there wasnt enough people here.
Dude says:
One more item. Some people on this site have pointed out the hostility of “whites” toward people of color. I am hostile to anyone who stereotypes me and blames me for stuff I didn’t do. I am hostile to anyone who thinks I owe him money for something that happened to his ancestors. I’ve never been hostile to Asians, but I did notice “people of color” targeting Koreans during the LA riots. Asians have never said I owe them anything. So yeah, I will be hostile toward you whatever color you are if you say I owe you something when I didn’t do anything wrong. It makes you a selfish loser in my judgment.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
The bottom line is that we needed to import labor because of the lack of able people here.
Anonymous says:
immigrant son., where are your facts? Let’s see some evidence of black soldiers not being ground breakers? Free labor means that you do not pay them for their work. Casual labor and the industrial revolution are the true reasons for the end of slavery. You are right it became cheaper to pay enslaved people meager wages instead of paying for their inhumane living conditions.
Anonymous says:
dude, seems like your angry at an entire race rather than individuals, thats dangerous.
Anonymous says:
Immigrant son, what is your argument? That slave masters were nothing more than businessmen? You are underestimating their fear and hatred of those who are different.
Abiye says:
Sorry those comments were from me, forgot to put my name on it.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
Its up to you to tell me about the significant battles and why no one else could have done it.
There is no free lunch slave labor was not free, first you paid for them, you housed them and you kept them healthy, otherwise the were as good as a dead horse.
Abiye says:
I do not understand how you can talk about human beings like that, let alone ones who have passed away. It is truly sickening. Of course people had to pay for enslaved people, it was a business, but it was a hell of a lot cheaper than paying them like they did before slavery. Your argument is asinine.
Nick says:
Wow….thought I was worth a check to see what I missed. Abyie, you seriously need to look at a couple things in yoru argument that these united states wouldnt exist without slaves. First, nearly all countries more than a couple hundred years old had or have slave labor, period. Its been a part of going to war and winning for as far back as you can look. If Africa was such a part of how this country was formed and the progress its made why hasnt there been ANY back there?? Answer me that one….because I’m stuck there. It appears to me that nearly the entire continant of Africa has poverty stricken masses, child labor, genocide issues, trible fighting where hundreds of thousands are killed with hand tools, unstable govt, the list is endless. But if it wasnt for their actual physical labor we wouldnt have been able to get the work force together to do it? Is that the thought? I’m confused here, couldnt we have just enslaved the native americans?
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
Quit being ignorant, if there were more Irishman here there would have been no slaves, slaves lived in the Hilton compared to how Irishman lived in the north. Slaves were here because of a lack of labor, it would have been cheaper to hire an Irishman back then.
an immigrants son says:
Nick
The problem with Abiye and other ancestors of slave is a lack of appreciation for the oppressors, like I stated earlier my father was taken and used as a slave during WWII, but I appreciate what he went through it gave me what I have today, he thinks he would be better off in Africa.
Anonymous says:
Please immigrant son leave my name out of your comments unless you are addressing me
Anonymous says:
immigrant son, why are you on this page? If all you are here to do it argue against the truth and personally attack people then you are wasting your time
Anonymous says:
Nick, read my comments, that was in a quote, therefore I did not say it
Abiye says:
again those were from me
Abiye says:
The problem with Abiye and other ancestors of slave is a lack of appreciation for the oppressors
u really want to stick with that?
Abiye says:
nick and immigrant son, im curious how old are you and where are you from? have you ever been out of the US, if so where?
an immigrants son says:
LOL Anonymous
You seem to have a personality disorder
You are a typical Obama socialist you want to ramrod your beliefs down everyones throat. An opposing view is bad to you guys. so much for the party who claims enlightenment.
You seem to be having a problem expressing yourself.
Nick says:
Abyie- I’m a 37yo male in Seattle WA. I have travled all over the world. Not to Africa though, although I would like to someday.
you?
Abiye says:
immigrant son, please I respect your opinions but when you make this a political forum and a avenue for personal attacks you are only showing that you hate.
Abiye says:
Nick, then I do not see how you are qualified to discuss the history or the current state of Africa.
Abiye says:
I am 22, from portland and I have traveled to Europe, Africa and the Caribbean many times.
Nick says:
LOL…..you cant argue with me so thats the direction you choose? I watch the news, not just the US news and I can assure you I’m very well informed. Please tell me specificaly where my argument isnt sound. What forward progress has been made there?? Where?
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
50, military acad grad, all around the world.
You should go to Africa and see what life is like there.
Abiye says:
I have many times and it is beautiful and full of resources that have been extracted and sent to other countries as a result of colonialism. Don’t be fooled by what you’re told and even what you see in Africa, it is very rich, culturally and resourcefully.
Nick says:
if I were only as smart as I was when I was 22…..I think that might have something to do with it. And please dont take offense to that Abyie, everyones smarter adn more sure about everything when they are young.
Abiye says:
immigrant son, Im sorry but I would expect someone more than 2x times age to act a little more mature. Your personal attacks are like that of a child.
Abiye says:
I understand that Nick but my major is Black Studies and I have dedicated the last 3 years of life and the next one to studying Africa and slavery so I am very qualified.
Abiye says:
And age is nothing but a number, did u ever think that maybe that says something about you.
Nick says:
Hmm, OK, I have no argument that it is rich in culture and resources…..so have those been employed in their society? Where’s the improvements and better way of life?
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
Im an ateist, Im an afrocenrist, I believe that is where life started, with that said, for some darn reason that part of the world has been left behind and colonialism is not the reason.
Nick says:
I tell my 21yo girlfriend that, she’ll laugh. I feel the same but there are some things that are just true….you will see someday. Beyond that I would love fro you to point this out to me and I’m not being sarcastic at all. I would love to feel differently about this…
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
if you think age is nothing but a number, well then you are talking like a 10 year old…LOL
but dont be offended because age is just a number!
Abiye says:
immigrant son, calling yourself an afrocentrist is a disrespect to me and all people who are afrocentric around the world. You cannot deny that life started in africa but have no problem denying that colonialism hurt africa? Do some research or even go to africa and see that all means of transportation, roads, railroads are all set up to go from the the means of extractions (gold and diamond mines, minerals, chemicals) to the coast where they can be shipped off. Look at countries with incredible numbers of starvation and look at the the food being shipped to other countries on their docks everyday, then tell me that has nothing to with colonialism.
Abiye says:
Im talking like a 10 year old. You are the one using LOL
Abiye says:
Nick somethings don’t change, and the truth is one of them. No matter how old you get, the truth is the truth.
Nick says:
true….and I still dont get how blaming everyone else for a lack of forward progress helps your argument. What have the people done for themselves?
an immigrants son says:
Abiye
It has to do with business amd making money, your tribal leaders(ancestors) learned how to make money by selling yourass to the US, they had no clue as to what resources were in Africa.
Nick says:
now there’s truth….
Abiye says:
Its not about blaming its about telling the truth. People tend to only take things for face value and never ask why things are a certain way. The reason why people never ask is because the truth clearly shows that colonialism crippled Africa. I’m not saying that there are no internal problems, of course there are, corruption, killing, etc. Looking at it from face value nurtures a certain stereotype of Africans and that is that we cannot even run our own countries. You have to realize that most of countries that were colonized were only made independent 20-40 years ago, that is not a long time when are you talking about basically building a country up from the ground up. let me give u some examples, Zimbabwe is country that although suffered from colonialism is plagued by corruption and greed from its leaders. On the other hand pretty much every other country with the exception of a few have struggled to support their people because their economy relies on exports and they have no control over price.
Abiye says:
immigrant son, please don’t even address me, you are so offensive everyone in here. Your comments have no fact and are based on your hatred.
an immigrants son says:
why does this sound like a typical black run city in America
Abiye says:
I’m not saying that there are no internal problems, of course there are, corruption, killing, etc. Looking at it from face value nurtures a certain stereotype of Africans and that is that we cannot even run our own countries (cities).
Abiye says:
once again do not address me or use my name.
Nick says:
I dont hate Abyie although I agree with a decent amount of what he has said…..I honestly dont think he hates either. The conversation has gotten a bit of course although I can appreicate your answer to my question. If its taken this long its been slow going in my opinion. If colonialism was the problem they should have fought it. Struggle is part of progress and so it goes. I hope we see real progress in Africa soon….so much good could come from it. As for the slavery issues, again it happend, we are all sorry I think that anyone suffers but that was part of history and we are all moving forward now. Or at least we should be…
Abiye says:
I appreciate your respect Nick, i do not however appreciate attacks on a race or on myself, that is why i have reported immigrant son to the moderator, now its in his hands
Abiye says:
by the way Nick, i meant that about immigrant son
Nick says:
I will say its been nice to see a different point of view and I have enjoyed our discussion. Maybe we should continue it tomorrow when time allows…
Have a nice night.
an immigrants son says:
lets see what have I learned from Abiye says, without slaves western civilization(or atleat america the way we know it) would not exist, inner cities are paradises, diversity is a one way street, if you disagree you are a racist.
When I cant make my point cry to the moderator.
an immigrants son says:
dont worry, I just happened to stumble upon this ridiculous commentary from a obviously troubled young girl and I disagree with her, sorry!
I will leave and you can continue to blame whitey for all your problems!
By the way, your problems will still exist! Long after Im dead and buried.
an immigrants son says:
If we want no racial tensions between White and Black Americans, then all of us have a responsibility to counter the nonsense being taught in our public school system with the truth, which is as follows:
Slavery existed between most peoples for 10,000 years before America was born.
Slavery on our soil started two centuries before America existed, so it was not an American policy that started it.
African Kings sold slaves to Europeans for centuries, shipping them through Islamic controlled trade routes.
It was primarily four European countries that bought slaves from African Kings and sent them to the Caribbean and North America – the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and British (so the USA had NOTHING to do with it starting).
When America declared her Independence, she did so while being subject to the economy controlled by Europeans, particularly King George, which included slave labor. America did not choose slavery; it existed the day she was born.
In her founding documents, America declared the equality of all people with no exceptions – being the first modern nation to have done so. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The Founding Fathers, some slaveholders, by accepting the above set the bar for the nation of America higher than they personally reached themselves – the first ever people in modern history to declare a morality for their nation that was higher than their own.
America immediately set out to end slavery within her borders, with White people in ten states outlawing slave trade.
Stating in the Constitution that Black Slaves were 3/5ths of a person was to HELP slaves, not hurt them. That is in the part of the Constitution that holds each state gets more congresspersons (and thus more power) based upon a higher population. This was the Free States telling the Slave States, “Set your slaves free and you will get more power in Congress. Keep slaves and be penalized.”
The abolition movement in America continued to grow stronger and stronger.
In the 1850’s 3 civil rights groups met in Ripon, Wisconsin and formed a new organization whose purpose was to end slavery in America – the Republican Party.
In 1860, White people elected an anti-slavery candidate in Republican Abraham Lincoln, in hopes that he would dilute their own political power by empowering Black people. No other people in the history of the world worked so hard to dilute their own power to raise the power of others as did American White people.
The Civil War represents a unique place in the history of warfare – the White Americans who started that war are to this day the only group of people in the history of planet Earth to fight a war against themselves to dilute their own power while increasing the political power of others. No other group of people in the world hold that distinction
Whites and Blacks fought TOGETHER in the Civil War to help America achieve her goal of racial equality as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
Only 80 years after her birth, less then a tick of the clock in human history, America made illegal what humans were doing for 10,000 years before her – Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, which started the process to free all slaves.
To their GREAT CREDIT, Blacks in America did not try to conquer or leave America after the Civil War – rather they wished to assimilate into the country that fought for them, and for whom they fought. Black people became stakeholders in America – it’s their country.
In 1865, American White people ratified the Thirteenth Amendment, ending slavery for good.
In 1866 the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified to ensure the federal protections of equality of the races would apply to the states. In doing so, American White people passed a law guaranteeing political power to people of other races, diluting their own political power in the process.
In 1964, with the passage of the Civil Rights Act (filibustered by Democrats, with a higher percentage of Republicans voting for it) America became the first nation to penalize private depravations of liberties, as opposed to just public deprivations of liberty. Again, American White people acted to guarantee the Freedoms of Black people and other ancestral nationalities.
Since then, America has also fought to end slavery around the world, being responsible for freeing more people from the bonds of oppressive governments than any other nation in human history.
The point of the above is that children in school should be taught this truth:
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS A GLORIOUS HISTORY AGAINST SLAVERY, AND CONTINUES TO LEAD THE WORLD IN FIGHTING TO FREE OPPRESSED PEOPLE.
I suspect my walks home from school as a White boy through Black neighborhoods might have been a whole lot easier after history class had the truth been taught in schools.
Abiye says:
Your comments make me sick. Literally.
an immigrants son says:
Abiye, what an original, intelligent and insightful comment, do you have anymore?
Neeneko says:
Hrm. She brings up the example of Irish immigrants. I wonder how many people realize that much of the industrial north was based off free immigrant labor?
It was not unusual to effectively enslave Irish immigrants. Sure they were technically ‘paid’, but all their pay went right back into the company. And in theory they could quit and get another job, but they were in debt to the company so if they quit they had to pay off their debt up front or go to jail.
In some ways, the Irish had it worse then the black slaves. You had a massive free work force, you did not have to pay to obtain them so the labor was even cheaper (thus you did not have to worry about death rates), and the Irish were not even considered Christian so you could treat them as heathens. Blacks, while considered inferrior, were at least still ‘Christian’ in people’s eyes.
an immigrants son says:
Neeneko, exactly, and not just the Irish, nearly every immigrant, except for being called free (if thats what you want to call it) immigrants lived worse than slaves.
And it was cheaper to hire someone then to pay for the slaves, not until the workers revolts did the standard of living start to rise, and what did we learn, we learned that if the worker made more, so can the rich.
Abiye says:
You are the kind of person who is only secure with himself when he can put others below him. People like you regardless of race are exactly what is wrong with this country. Our country is finally at the point where we are at the very least acknowledging its unspeakable past. People like you know that your handed down hatred is no longer accepted and you cannot face the fact that someone who you were told was 3/5 of a person holds the highest office in the land. So you spend irresponsible amounts of time scouring the internet to find anyone doing or discussing something positive and something that does not benefit you directly. You litter their pages with hate in an attempt to scare free minds from gathering. You try to scare them away. You avoid the truth at all costs. You make personal attacks on those who do not agree with you. You try to be the last person to comment because you believe persistence is victory. This is what you are and I have come across many people just like you of all races, political backgrounds, religions, etc. Every person doing something positive or working towards something positive knows exactly what kind of person you are. You are the people that drive us. Thank you.
moderator says:
Why are you still here responding to someone you asked to observe? You obviously are not to offended.
Abiye says:
please don’t pretend to be the moderator
snoopyfromLA says:
Hey Abbie, looks like you want the last word eh? Are you psyco analysing yourself?
Abiye says:
I’m not out to spread hate so this doesn’t bother me. I have no problem being the last person to comment because my motive is not to put down the truth.
Jthomas says:
This exchange was pretty good, I got the same impression at first that immigrant son was a racist, but I got his point, and he is right, slavery was not an American original, it existed long before, and we have to overcome, some people cant, I guess.
snoopyfromLA says:
What have you said that is more of the truth then what anyone else has to say? Seems to me you want to silence others. Didnt you report him to the mods?
Abiye says:
You’re right it is not an american original but that does not justify. I am american therefore I feel that I have the duty to my country to speak out about what is wrong and reconcile the past. Slavery has been around long before America but the length and the amount of people sold in the trade are what makes it stand out. Im not saying we are the only ones at fault, most of europe and south america participated and advanced the slave trade to america. The difference is that countries such as Britain and Spain publicly apologized for their countries’ roles in the slave trade years ago. The decision by congress should spark conversation in the slave trade discussion. We are not out for guilt or anything monetary we are out there for the truth. After apartheid ended in South Africa the Truth and Reconciliation Committee gave people the chance to speak out about the unspeakable acts committed against them. That has never happened in this country, but I do not think it is too late. In order for us to move on as country we must tell the truth about the slave trade, the effects of it, and the contributions to this country made by enslaved people. It is only right.
Jthomas says:
I just read immigrants post of 9:11 pm, 19 August, 2009 ?.
WOW 911 wakeup call.
What did he say in this post that was not true, at first the 3/5 statement sounded corny but it does make sense, it kept the representation down in the south.
Abiye says:
Im sorry I will accept my country calling an person 3/5 of a person. I don’t care about the reasoning or lack there of behind it. How would you feel if someone said you were 3/5 of a person?
Abiye says:
I meant I will never accept…sorry
Jthomas says:
Did Britain or anyone else fight a war to correct this mistake (once again not theirs), is that not in itself a bold enough statement of apology?
I highly doubt an apology will help you son, Im 84 years old and black, I saw more injustice than you would care to see, and lately its all been self inflicted by our own.
Abiye says:
Sir, I’m sorry that you’re generation was taught that the civil war was to free the slaves. Respectfully sir, that is flat out wrong. Lincoln said himself that he wished he could send the slaves back to Africa.
Jthomas says:
Abiye says:
I meant I will never accept…sorry
So by your own admission an apology will not be good enough, so its your problem learn to deal with it.
I have come to accept the past a long time ago, I choose to live whats left of my life knowing what has been accomplished.
Abiye says:
I want you to know sir that the injustice you saw, while I was not there to witness it or be discriminated against myself still hurts me. To think that only 50 years ago black people were treated as second class citizens sickens me. And also please realize that people like me, our grandparents were right beside you during this injustice and they decided that their children and grandchildren will know the truth and never forget.
Abiye says:
an apology is nothing unless it is followed by action, sir
Jthomas says:
Son you are the misguided one, I marched with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. he was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S’s: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.
It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.
I suggest you do some research on your own.
Abiye says:
You can go parading around proud to be a republican but I refuse to comment on someone’s political preference in this forum, this is not the place sir.
Jthomas says:
I can see where the immigrant got testy with you, you read in what you want to read in, I was not parading around proud to be a republcan, I was just giving you a history lesson.
Given the circumstances of that era, it is understandable why Dr. King was a Republican. It was the Republicans who fought to free blacks from slavery and amended the Constitution to grant blacks freedom (13th Amendment), citizenship (14th Amendment) and the right to vote (15th Amendment). Republicans passed the civil rights laws of the 1860s, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 that was designed to establish a new government system in the Democrat-controlled South, one that was fair to blacks. Republicans also started the NAACP and affirmative action with Republican President Richard Nixon’s 1969 Philadelphia Plan (crafted by black Republican Art Fletcher) that set the nation’s fist goals and timetables. Although affirmative action now has been turned by the Democrats into an unfair quota system, affirmative action was begun by Nixon to counter the harm caused to blacks when Democrat President Woodrow Wilson in 1912 kicked all of the blacks out of federal government jobs.
Few black Americans know that it was Republicans who founded the Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Unknown also is the fact that Republican Sen. Everett Dirksen from Illinois was key to the passage of civil rights legislation in 1957, 1960, 1964 and 1965. Not mentioned in recent media stories about extension of the 1965 Voting Rights Act is the fact that Dirksen wrote the language for the bill. Dirksen also crafted the language for the Civil Rights Act of 1968 which prohibited discrimination in housing. President Lyndon Johnson could not have achieved passage of civil rights legislation without the support of Republicans.
Abiye says:
again sir not the place, if you have a comment about the article or something pertaining to slavery and not politics I would be glad to listen to your opinion
Abiye says:
I just want to say that sir I respect what you have been through and thank you for your opinion. Although I do not agree with any of it, i think we both can agree that during the time of the injustices you speak of there was not one way black people thought. My opinions and beliefs tend to align more with Malcolx X than Martin Luther King Jr. although I greatly respect him and cherish his work.
Jthomas says:
It all goes hand in hand, some day it will come to you, hopefully it won’t be too late. You know Democrats have been running our inner-cities for the past 40 to 50 years, and blacks are still complaining about the same problems. More than $9 trillion dollars have been spent on poverty programs since Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty with little, if any, impact on poverty. Diabolically, every election cycle, Democrats blame Republicans for the deplorable conditions in the inner-cities, then incite blacks to cast a protest vote against Republicans.
In order to break the Democrats’ stranglehold on the black vote and free black Americans from the Democrat Party’s economic plantation, we must shed the light of truth on the Democrats. We must demonstrate that the Democrat Party policies of socialism and dependency on government handouts offer the pathway to poverty, while Republican Party principles of hard work, personal responsibility, getting a good education and ownership of homes and small businesses offer the pathway to prosperity.
Once you realize that you will free yourself of your inner imposed slavery. Right now you are still their slave.
Abiye says:
I am no slave. I dont subscribe to any political party and I am not disagreeing with any of the political facts you presented. All I know is that America has not been good to black people especially. There is no point in pointing the finger because that solves nothing. What we need to do is be honest about our history and teach our children the truth so that they can lead our country having learned the truth, regardless of what they believe. That is all I want just the truth.
Jthomas says:
America has not been good to me, are you kidding me? Listen to what the immigrant was tryin to tell you, where would you be if it were not for slavery? Im not trying to justify it, all Im doing is lookin at the glass as bein half full instead of half empty. I can not picture myself growing up and livin in Africa, if you can, maybe America is not for you.
Now don’t take all this the wrong way, all I’m, sayin is that America with all its injustices is better than anywhere else I can think of in this world.
Jthomas says:
Time for me to retire, nice talking to you son.
Abiye says:
I can sir because I am first and foremost a citizen of the world. Nice talking to you too.
DrHill says:
If the US apologizes would you then be a US citizen foremost?
DrHill says:
And since you are first and foremost a citizen of the world are you seeking an apology from your ancestors or relatives that sold you into slavery?
Just curious!
sharpright7 says:
The thing is that black people wanting an apology and (lol) monetary reparations from white people is just about as racial as it gets. I agree with many that I have read on this blog: Black people do not like to be stereotyped, yet al of their problems come from ‘white people’ in their minds. Never mind that black people were as guilty of slave trading if not more so than white people. So why do they not find out who’s ancestors it is exactly that they feel owe them so much
sharpright7 says:
By the way, I cannot believe black people do not feel america has been good to them. We have made reparations to them for years with welfare, hud housing, etc.
Rick S says:
Too much. I’ll say this: I am sorry that the black peoples of this nation have suffered injustice at the hands of a political, social, and cultural system that has allowed such injustices. Now, as for the reparation, sorry that is not forthcoming. Not from me in any way, shape, or form. As I stated in previous posts if we go down that path then everyone will be paying and paid reparation so let’s just call it even and get on with fixing the system. I can say this because well before the Jim Crowe era in the US there was a time when an Irish person was persona-non-grata in any polite society, they were discriminated against, killed, hurt, stolen from, and denied employment simply for being Irish. As a descendent of an Irish immigrant can I claim reparation; do I want to? No, that would be ludicrous.
James,
You stated that I would be suprised to find out that my Great Grandfather, the minister, owned a slave. Well, having researched my ancestry, at least to that point. No, he did not, and marrying a Native American girl he would have had few, if any, white people in his congregation as that was frowned upon. So, in fact I could claim a minority citizenship but decline to do so as I am an American. I am not a Native American, I am not an Irish American, I am not a European American, I am ’simply’ an American. I think we all need to understand this fact. Although my ancestors came from many countries they did not see themselves as a _____ American; they viewed themselves as an American with no modifier of any sort.
As far as getting ahead in life, well I started out with nothing, just like many minority children. My father was an enlisted man in the Military with 6 children to raise. My mother was a stay-at-home mom so we had very little (and moved around quite a bit). I joined the military right out of high school. Unfortunately I missed out on both GI Bills and what little I had from the VEAP covered about 2 seconds of college. So, I worked, took out loans, and utilized PELL Grants. I now have my Masters degree, a good job, and make decent money. So, why can’t others do the same thing? What is holding them back? If you say opportunity, I say balderdash and poppycock! I didn’t have the opportunity that others had but I went to college anyway. Money? Again, Bull. I didn’t have the money either, I worked, borrowed, and yes received grants that ANYONE could receive. Parenting? My parents certainly didn’t push us to go to college because they knew we couldn’t afford it. Grades? If you have passed high school (passing means a ‘C’) then you can attend college at ANY college. I made had a C average from high school. I even failed Algebra II. To get into college I started out at night school and took some ‘catchup’ courses such as Algebra. I then started taking courses in my intended major, physics. Once I had established my grades I switched over to day school with no problems. I have not taken an ACT or SAT test in my life so these are not pre-requisites to attending college. Now, if I can do all these things to get an education why can’t anyone else? I know there are those who have overcome much more hardship than I have to attend college (I had a single mom in one of my upper level science courses who was working full time, taking care of a baby, and going to school full time). The benefits and grants that I used are available to anyone, not just whites, or blacks, or … so why aren’t more taking advantage of these programs? We parents enable, or disable our children through our attitudes, actions, and words so much. We, as parents, need to do more to enable the drives of our children, change our attitudes towards education, achievement, and success. NO ONE can hold you back if you ignore their negativity. And simply saying that I can’t because _______ won’t let me is a cop-out. Get over yourself and get your @SS moving!
Linda Carr-Kraft says:
James.. let me add my own experience in the hopes that it might help others to understand the complexity of this difficult issue. You do not know or understand until you have stood in the shoes of either side (or in the case of many of my Carr/Hemings’ cousins.. both sides), the depth of emotion that accompanies this issue. And I steadfastly believe that we cannot move forward together on any journey of reconciliation until we forgive our collective “selves” and understand what happened during this part of our nation’s history. Yes, there is slavery happening today and we must speak out against it.. but, that does not mean we learn how to do that by examining and forgiving our past. Just like the individual who says, “I will not try as I am one person”… each of us makes a ripple in the water that becomes the mighty wave.
I am a true “child” of the south… I was raised here and all of my family has lived here for centuries. I am also the descendant of slave owners from many sides. I had always thought that, intellectually I understood the meaning of this and accepted what had passed had passed and I would never have committed such a horrific act. until one day when I was going through some papers taken from the attic of an older relative. Among the letters were three “Bills of Sale” for adults and children from the estate of my great-great-great grandfather at Carrsbrook in Albemarle County in Virginia. The buyer and seller, price and first name only of the slaves were listed. Suddenly the air from lungs left so quickly, I thought to myself, “so, that’s what they mean by “took my breath away”" and I found myself on my knees crying. It was not a volitional act by any means. I was taken completely and totally by surprise by the depth and strength of the emotion that swept over and through me. In that nano second of time, I finally understood. Holding those three small pieces of paper, the only reminder of lives lost, I knew as well as if I had been transported in time and witnessed it first hand. The buying and selling of a human life. Yes, I was not responsible. It happened 130 years before my birth. But, I understand that for some things I am the current “place holder” for all those who have gone before me and all those who will follow me in a long line of family. So, I offer my apology in proxy for my ancestors, as there is the both the very least and very best that I am able to do. So, for those of you who act disgusted when this issue is raised… do not be so hasty. It is not a simple issue that can be shut away and forgotten. We carry the “memories” of this era with us throughout the generations and the only way to move forward is to make amends with the past. Consider for a moment that you do not yet understand and may need to reconsider….
Linda Carr-Kraft says:
…
sorry.. I wrote in such a hurry and with such frustration.. several spelling and grammatical errors.. uncharactistic of me…..
Mbrown says:
I think Katarina Browne and her family (DeWolfs)and others in the slave trade, owe the blacks an apology, dont drag us down because of your family. I think you should go back to your word processor and get started on it right now!
Those black people posting here should be directing their anger and Katarina and her family, not white America in general. Quit stereotyping us!
And for those blacks who are still not satisfied with her apology, we can go further and shackle the slave trade decedents on slave boats, the angry decendents can go on cruises with them and abuse them, maybe then we can have peace.
Of course Im kiding about the last paragraph.
Mbrown says:
Linda Carr-Kraft, more decedents of the salve trade should be like you, make your apologies, but dont ask me to join in and apolgize for your families mistakes.
Mbrown says:
Immigrants son, you are so right, imagine White and Black children walking together, chests swelled with pride because as Americans they are equal partners in having showed the highest morality the world has ever known in wiping out slavery.
Instead, children are only told America has a “sad, embarrassing, unfortunate history” when it comes to slavery, and Blacks are still affected by it today. No wonder there is animosity.
Consequently, Whites and Blacks see each other not as Americans, but multicultural antagonists, each an outsider to the other’s group.
I don’t blame Black people because they are taught incorrect American history. I blame the America-loathing liberals who control the curriculum, and who think Blacks are better off seeing themselves as victims instead or what they are, which is stakeholders in the greatest Country the world as ever known – a country that has obliterated slavery all over the globe.
The United States of America would have no racial tensions between Blacks and Whites if we simply honor our own glorious American history by teaching it in our schools.
Abiye says:
Mbrown maybe you should put yourself in someone else’s shoes. No one is asking white america to apologize for anything or even take responsibility. All that it needed is an honest discussion on the effects of slavery that is all. I am sorry that you see that as an attack on white america because it is far from that.
Abiye says:
The glorious american history you speak of is only glorious to a certain race. Would you consider if glorious if it was filled with the bloodshed of your ancestors? I know this country was built on ideals but it was not until recently that we realized that and this country began to be a nation for all people. Should Jewish people consider the history of Germany glorious? I think not.
Abiye says:
an immigrants son says:
Nick
The problem with Abiye and other ancestors of slave is a lack of appreciation for the oppressors, like I stated earlier my father was taken and used as a slave during WWII, but I appreciate what he went through it gave me what I have today, he thinks he would be better off in Africa.
Do you people really want to agree with someone who said this?
Mbrown says:
Whos shoe’s would you like me to walk in? I’m half English, part black and American Indian, but I consider myself 100% American and proud of it.
I guess you wear the only shoes that count on this blog, so it seems.
I know, I’m probably not black enough for you.
Mbrown says:
Abby you miss his point, he is telling to not hate those who may have done you wrong, instead focus on the benefits you now live with, your distant relatives live in Africa, do you want to trade places?
Abiye says:
I have no hate but I will never appreciate oppression, how does that make any sense?
Abiye says:
The problem with Abiye and other ancestors of slave is a lack of appreciation for the oppressors
This sounds like something a slave master said
Abiye says:
by the way africa is wonderful place and i would be privileged to live as i would anywhere else in the world.
Mbrown says:
Don’t play stupid with me brother, no one asked you to appreciate oppresion, appreciate what that oppression has opened up for you, don’t dwell in the past, move on.
You live in the greatest nation on earth because of your ancestors suffering, you act as if you were and still are enslaved.
Mbrown says:
Im sure you can find some racist to buy you a one way ticket. Would you consider that enough of a reparation?
Abiye says:
I never asked for reparations just an honest dialogue. And please do not call me stupid because I refuse to praise the slave owners who killed my ancestors. I hold no resentment to any living person. There is a reason why we teach history and it is to learn from our mistakes. We cannot simply gloss of hundreds of years of bloodshed and oppression because you feel it is time to move on, the wounds are still open and we should never forget. “The problem with Abiye and other ancestors of slave is a lack of appreciation for the oppressors” How is this not asking me to appreciation oppression?
Abiye says:
Thinking that we are truly privileged as a nation and better than others is the reason for war and bloodshed. This American pride has become arrogance for those who call themselves the biggest patriots. The real patriots are the people who realize that we are a part of this world first and foremost and no better than any other human being.
Abiye says:
Mbrown, please dont put words in my mouth, i never said you were not black enough, i would never spread that type of hate. I am simply saying put yourself in the shoes of the person on the other side of the debate. That is all, im sorry you took it as such.
Abiye says:
To people that are just here to discount the facts presented in Katrina Browne’s column, don’t you have anything better to do than stop people from having an honest dialogue?
BlackVietvet says:
Abiye, looks like you are the only one whose dialogue counts here, I bet you haven’t learned a thing so far.
Mbrown did not call you stupid, he said quit playing stupid, he should have just called you what you are.
Your problem is a lack of worldly experience, you live in your own troubled world, blaming everyone but yourself for your shortcomings. Slavery is not an issue today, its all in your head.
If you feel slavery is still an open wound, you have issues no apology could cure.
Abiye says:
blackvietvet, I am the son of immigrants and have traveled all over the world. When you assume…well u know the rest.
Abiye says:
I still wonder why all these people are only here to show their dislike of the column by katrina browne…if you have the time to put down others beliefs simply because you feel yours are better, and that makes you feel better, by all means continue whatever it takes for you to feel good about yourself. Glad I could help.
Abiye says:
also blackvietvet if you are so over the past why do you feel the need to broadcast to the world that you are black?
BlackVietvet says:
Ok now I will call you stupid, traveling the world does not make you worldly if you dont learn a thing. I lost a leg fighting for this country, and this country does not owe me a thing, I will forever be thankful to call myself an American, it has given me all I needed to be who I am and what I have, now grow up..
Abiye says:
I pity you because you do not have the knowledge to discuss the like an adult and must resort to name calling. Really pathetic. Also I thank you for your service to this country but the vietnam war was as pointless at the iraq war and did nothing but kill americans and vietnamese. This is simply the reality.
Abiye says:
These are simply my thoughts if you disagree I will respect your opinion. It is not my intention to downplay your commitment to america or what you have lost during your service.
Abiye says:
Please, I would like to hear your comments on the column rather than politics or war. If you have something constructive and positive to say I would love to hear it.
BlackVietvet says:
I have met many angry young men during my years of mentoring young blacks, I will give you the same advice I give them, life is what you make of it, don’t let the past get in your way, learn from it and move on, time waits for no man.
I have lost nothing, I have only gained.
Abiye says:
My happiness comes from seeing people who were told that they are nothing become something. As a child I was told that I could be nothing but a rapper or an athlete. I was told my mind was useless, all that I was good for was my body and my physical ability. This is an effect of slavery, even today we are used for only our physical gifts and not given the chance to challenge what we are taught. It goes so deep that black people started to believe it too, we became fooled by the athletes with million dollar contracts and the entertainers making millions a show. Take away the money and what are you? The same as our ancestors.
Abiye says:
And sir, I am not angry, and maybe those young men you mentored weren’t angry either, maybe they understood it. It has nothing to do with age.
Abiye says:
Linda Carr-Kraft, you comments are absolutely beautiful and enlightening. I thank you for offering something positive to this discussion.
steve says:
why would we have to apologize for slavery…is someone going to apologize to my family for losing members during the cival war to end slavery? i doubt it…and is anyone going to give me any money for my lose..i have lost nothing too and i dont expect anything…this is just another way for the black person to blame the white european race…just like dufar is our fault..oh wait that is black agains black…
steve says:
and malcolm x is a anti semite and a bigot….i tell u what u wear your x (malcom) and i will wear mine…oh wait the confederate flag is outlawed…the confederate flag stands for pride not predujice….
Abiye says:
You are a very angry person steve, I do not know how my comments could evoke some hurtful and dangerous emotions.
Abiye says:
Also please if you are going to speak on Malcolm X, read his book. He started off as hustler and then turned to islam. Later in his life he realized that the teachings of Elijah Muhammad who peached that white people were the devil, were false, after he traveled to Mecca and shared in the spirituality with his white brothers and sisters. This is why I respect this man because he can from a time when black people were treated as second class citizens, made a positive change in his life while still realizing that all was not right and that there is no place for hate in the human heart. Please read the book because I think it may help you to realize that the anger you have is directed towards an entire race rather than the actions of individuals who have hurt you.
Abiye says:
by the way, the confederate flag is unpatriotic. It stands for slavery and secession.
roger says:
One must first know the whole story. Facts are that some of the largest slave owners were blacks THe facts seldom told that one black slave owner was tried and convicted of “breeding” slaves If we are going to cry, lets cry about the whole story and tell the whole truth, not just parts. Google, ” were there any blacl slave owners ” and you will be enlightened. Just the facts Slavery is wrong in any shape form or fashion
Linda Carr-Kraft says:
In reading the postings above, I have to shake my head at some of the attempts to take a very complex issue and trying to water it down to a simple one. I only offered my own experience as an illustration of how you might believe you understand an issue on an intellectual issue and then, without warning you realize that your understanding was really just one dimensional. It does not mean that will be your experience.. nor, should it be as we will each have a different perspective and response. Like any apology, what does it cost the person that offers it? And what are the possible outcomes? In my view, it allows us to move on and discuss where we are now and where we go in the future. I can only speak for myself and my own family and for no one else. And in the sharing of each experience a discussion emerges that may lead all of us to a better understanding and broader perspective. If you spend time throwing stones at the opinions of others, you really cannot make any progress. The best I can offer is this… unless you have grown up in the south, knowing ALL sides of your family, spending years sharing your lives and listening to each other.. well, it is going to be very hard for you to understand why this issue is so important.
Don’t understand the “dragging us down” comment.. if you ask either side of my family.. they will tell you that is the opposite is true of our family, we do not engage in hand wringing.. just honest and open discussion that is also very respectful. We do not always agree, far from it, but we always listen and we respect the views of others and expect the same in return.
Strait Black says:
First, great article Ms. Browne. It’s so refreshing to hear someone talk about the wicked period of America and the Devils who participated in it with knowledge. Let me just say that the Africans that were given the name of “Slaves” were human beings enslaved by he/ she Devils. And if someone could come up with a better name besides Devils; who drowned, burned, raped, whipped, castrated, and murdered other human beings in their community squares after church services for their perverted pleasure. Email me. Mike Vick has been demonized beyond belief, by white folks whose granny, great uncle, aunt, and papa did the same things to people. For those who say the human/devil connection existed long ago “get over it” and they had nothing to do with it. The 50’ and 60’s was not that long ago. I bet you remember Woodstock, where you were when you first saw Elvis, and still sing the Beatles tunes in your car. News Flash: I wasn’t there either, but the past laws, legislation, and discrimination still exists today: With Poor Education, Housing, Employment, Loans, Health Care, etc.
It’s no coincidence that black people lack far behind in these areas the same way humans did centuries ago. Myself, I stopped trying to reason or negotiate with Descendents of Devils. It’s like a dog telling a cat how it is to be a dog. It’s not going to happen! So an apology is fine for my grand mother’s mother and my grand father’s father. But for me, I’ll settle for reparations just like the Jews and Asians received. Not with a check, but with government money rebuilding the infrastructure of my community. The money the auto industry received would be just fine for every black community in all states of the US. One billion each: for employment, roads, property rehabs, healthcare, schools, drugs, guns, gang prevention, hospitals, good cops, justice system, teen pregnancy, HIV and aids prevention, churches, mosque, and protection from evil sub humans who will continue to plot. In addition to, fabulous community parks and establishments for connecting and rebuilding the true love of black people and families. Just think descendants who could care less about anything black. You would never have to see black folks in your neighborhoods or schools again, which would be paradise in America.
Linda CK says:
Oh! And I have to add this as an addendum. As I said, I am true child of the south and am proud to claim my heritage with all that that means. I once asked my father, a very wise man, who was a clergyman, a man of peace, but also a proud son of the south about the confederate flag, our confederate heritage and his commitment to civil rights. Dad was the “son” of governors and senators (and one president) from Virginia and Maryland; his grandfather was an officer in Pickett’s army and his great-grandfather was a surgeon general for the confederate troops from Virginia. He would pause by the confederate section of Hollywood Cemetery on his way to his parents’ graves and say a short prayer. How could he justify these remembrances in the face of his belief in the civil rights movement? He told me that it was so complex he was not sure he could explain it in a way that I could understand. He “honored” the memory of his ancestors, yet was vehemently opposed to segregation. He fought these conflicting emotions for many years and eventually learned to live with the both through discernment and acceptance. However, one of the very few times I ever saw him lose his temper was watching a car (with Penn. tags) with a confederate flag stretched across the back. He felt that the flag should be placed in its proper place in history – in the museums and in history and that to do otherwise allowed it to be continued to be a symbol of rascism. Whether you agree that it is or is not, or that it may be a symbol of “pride” as well is immaterial.. the fact of the matter is that it is primarily a symbol of rascism for the population at large. That is not ever going to change. And for many it is a symbol of great pain. And, in every (yes, every) single instance where I asked someone displaying the flag if they had an ancestor in the confederate army, the answer was “no”. So, please stop waving it around.. it only perpetuates the notion that true southerners are uneducated rascists, and frankly I am tired of it. Put it away, please.
Abiye says:
roger, while you are right that they were black people who owned slaves, while it is in no way comparable, what is your motive with this? This does not excuse slavery.
Abiye says:
Linda, and Straitblack, thanks for your honest comments, at least some people are interested in the truth.
Katie says:
Slavery is long over with. Get over it, and stop using it as a crutch to whine and complain about how bad your life is while doing nothing to make it better! No other race complains like African Americans. The American Indian has more reason to complain probably than any citizen of this country, and they never ask for retribution for what they lost. I came from a very long line of hard-working people. My ancestors were poor Scotch-Irish sharecroppers that worked as as hard as slaves did for what little they had. Not one of their descendants today has sat around and let their life go by complaining about how hard their ancestors had it. Everyone in my family line has worked hard for what they had and accomplished much. And by the way, I consider myself an American. Not Scotch-Irish American. African Americans need to call themselves Americans, and quit isolating themselves with that title.
Abiye says:
The only reason you do not hear about native american’s complaints of their treatment is because they are mute to you. Most of them have been killed off so please do not get that confused with their want and ability to speak for themselves. That is not only offensive to african americans but to native americans as wel
JiminChitown says:
Im old enough to remember when Chicago Public schools were mostly white, we all attended them blacks, whites, latinos and asians. There was no disparity in funds, there was however disparity in the outcome, whose fault was that.
Oh yea I forgot, it was slavery that forced them to drop out.
Katarina is wrong, very wrong, dangerously wrong, she is adding fuel to the victimization fraud.
Katie says:
I beg your pardon, but there are about 2.5 million American Indians living in the United States. That is quite a large enough number to make themselves by heard if they so desired. I have more sympathy and respect for the American Indians. Sorry if you find that offensive.
IndianJoe says:
Katie Amercan Indians suffer because they chose to live seperate of the mainstream, those of us who assimilated find America to be all that she exposes herself to be. People who constantly need handouts are weak, they are not the type of strong individuals this country so deperately seeks and needs, individualism is the foundation of this great nation.
BlackJack says:
I don’t blame white folks; I would want to forget the most atrocious event to humankind that my family tree was a part of forever too. Sorry folks; the residue of your wickedness is all around you and will remain as your children and grandchildren will suffer for it. Sorry that your conspiracy to conquer didn’t workout according to his-story plan. Katie says “look at the Native American” we killed them off and there still barely here surviving. Roger says “Africans sold Africans” So I guess that means Europeans are off the hook, and as long as fox news and friends can keep bamboozling blacks into thinking that they should love the conditions they are in, everything is ok.
Well sorry demons, African people were the first that came with the earth. And it’s been scientifically proven that every human being came from Africans and blacks with a spirit to live and love. And Europeans are the evil side of nature the same way that the devil was once an angel. Now I know why “Mighty Whitey” always wants to go to the moon and mars. Because its home. Than they have the nerves to call other people they murdered, stole land and property from Aliens. And for JiminChitown: go back to the high school in chi town where your president came from and see how well he did as a dropout. Devil!
Abiye says:
Katie, 2.5 million is very small number when you speaking about a whole nation as big as the U.S. is. It helps to look at things contextually because when you do not ask why, you never understand anything.
Abiye says:
and IndianJoe, I do not think it is your place to speak for all native americans just as it is not my place to speak for all black people. To assume that native americans suffer because they choose to is very offensive.
Abiye says:
BlackJack, These people are only here to stop us from having a positive conversation. They do not want people to gather for a good cause because they are too afraid that their lives will be altered in some miniscule way. They need to put others down in order to feel good about themselves. All we can do is wait till these people die with their hateful ways.
IndianJoe says:
BlackJack, Obama is half white so he is also part devil I guess, and you need to know a little more about your president he did not attend Chicago Public schools, he lived in Hawaii raised by a wealthy white grandparents.
DDuke says:
what are you two guys going to do when this thread dies?
And if you are going to wait for everyone to die, you will be long gone as well.
Abiye says:
IndianJoe you are disillusioned and only here to spread your politcial garbage.
Yie says:
Take a look in America’s War Timeline and ask yourself WHEN. WHEN was America supposed to undo slavery that it had inherited from the UK following its Independence 1783?? America had half a dozen wars before 1861 and the Civil War.
There are no apologies necessary. America freed the slaves as early as she could possibly have done.
Yie says:
http://americanhistory.about.com/library/timelines/bltimelineuswars.htm
Abiye says:
That does not justify slavery
Greg says:
Abiye, how do you propose we right all the wrongs? History cannot be changed. Pumping money into mostly black neighborhoods was suggested. If we do that, won’t the black people that have been successful (despite all the oppression) gain more? Then that will give others something else to complain about. If we give all the land back to the indians, then we would all be where? The fact is, we cannot, nor should we, in my opinion, set the precident of paying money to folks based on their skin color. Anyone that says they are held back because of what happened hundreds of years ago needs to stop wallowing in self pity. There are many things in our history books that are not quite right. Just because it is in print does not mean it is right. Rather than asking for money or an apology, or spending countless hours arguing about opinion, you should go out and teach history?
DDuke says:
abiye you said your parents are immigrants, how long have they been in this country, and where were they born?
Strait Black says:
abiye,
Don’t waste your time trying to reason with the wickedly privileged. It’s like trying to teach white kids to be black. Rise above the evil spirit and find your good place in life. This world revolves and what goes around will come back with vengeances. DENIAL is a coping mechanism that keeps one from breaking down completely from the truth. The evil spirit is just as strong as the righteous spirit, because the devil was an angel. A wicked person thinks destruction towards other human beings, is as good as a spiritually divine person saving ones life or feeding the homeless. Please understand this because you could debate to your dying day with devils about goodness. And Jim and Jane Crow would never be able to comprehend.
DDuke says:
Strait Black if life started in Africa and we were all black, common sense would tell you that evolution changed the way we appear, and lifes experiences evolved the brain, those who left Africa had to develop cognitive reasoning skills, to deal with their new environment, those who stayed were stymied.
So in the future, your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great granchildren may some day join us devils, depending on how far back mingling with your kind will set us back.
Abiye says:
Actually DDuke, those who left africa found food and water scare in the mountains and developed a sense of selfishness and entitlement that is evident today in your comments.
DDuke says:
I see you dont want to tell us where your parents were from.
DDuke says:
By the way entitlements are what you are asking for, kinda stuck your foot in your mouth?
And you are right they did find food and water scarce, that what I meant by their need to develop their cognitive reasoning (learned to survive the harsh climates, developed food systems, and shelter), something you obviously lack (cognitive reasoning). Thats why in Africa their is starvation, they are looking for their free luch there as well (aka entitlement)
Abiye says:
WOW, thats all I can say DDuke, educate yourself
Abiye says:
DDuke, why dont you give me your personal information then maybe I’ll give mine. This is the internet and I’m not comfortable disclosing everything about me.
Abiye says:
StraitBlack, thanks, you’re right, no sense in trying to reason with people who have no need to make sense.
BlackVietvet says:
I had to come back and see what this young black man had to say (Abiye) and I’m shocked to see that he did not condone the words of StraightBlack, it goes to show his nature, he is an angry racist black man. Its sad that there are many blacks just like him who can’t see the forest through the trees, just the same as he can’t see the goodness is America through his hate filled eyes…..
As an American of African roots, I apologize for both of them. As for an apology for slavery, the ones that could give an apology, any meaning are long gone, so what good would it be?
a black american says:
Blackvet I agree with you, and thanks for your words.
Now Miss Browne says the North as well as the South benefited from slavery.
Is this what she calls benefitted?
the Civil War killed 483,026 Southerners. another 194,026 were maimed, including a lot of limbs amputated.
The War virtually destroyed the Southern states, economically and in every other way, so that anyone who was a slaveholder or who indirectly benefited from slavery has virtually everything taken from them if they or their family members weren’t already killed.
Just to make sure anyone who isn’t in the South, but who benefited from slavery, the war killed 664,928 people from the other states, mostly white people, another 275,175, were maimed.
The US charged the tax payers of the United States about $21 trillion dollars as further punishment in gov handouts. Is that enough? Apparently not, a lot of people still want more. Aside from arguing about whether it’s fair to punish someone today for an event committed 150 years ago by someone they weren’t even related to, is there any form of reparations that would be successful, and what is “success” in this case, anyway?
Lets move on and discuss issues that are relevant today, like who is going to pay for this healthcare.
James says:
Now Miss Browne says the North as well as the South benefited from slavery.
Is this what she calls benefitted?
It’s true that many people were killed or wounded in the U.S. Civil War, which was partly started over the issue of slavery. It’s also true that southerners paid an especially heavy price for the war.
However, the U.S. economy was largely built on slavery. The colonial economy, north and south, was dominated by slavery and businesses directly tied to slavery. The U.S. economy between independence and the Civil War was primarily about slavery and businesses dependent upon slavery. U.S. workers and consumers benefited heavily from slavery, and slavery made possible the industrialization of the U.S.
These benefits were not lost. In fact, while the Civil War was costly and interfered with ordinary economic life, the nation’s economy was booming again within a few years of the war. While slavery was over, U.S. economic activity after the war would have been feeble by comparison without slavery and economic activity related to slavery before the war. We all benefit today from the economic foundations laid prior to the Civil War and derived from slavery, without which the U.S. economy today would be a shadow of its true self and our standard of living would be much lower.
The US charged the tax payers of the United States about $21 trillion dollars as further punishment in gov handouts.
As punishment for what? Whatever you’re talking about that adds up to $21 trillion, it didn’t compensate black families for slavery and it isn’t a sum to be deducted from the benefits of slavery.
Aside from arguing about whether it’s fair to punish someone today for an event committed 150 years ago by someone they weren’t even related to ….
It wouldn’t be fair to do that. Now, the majority of Americans are descended from people who benefited from slavery while slavery was still around, and all Americans derive substantial benefits today from slavery. So I don’t know about “weren’t even related to,” but no one should be punished for the actions of others.
The legislation before Congress to consider reparations for slavery, however, wouldn’t be about punishing anyone. It would be about compensating those Americans who are suffering today on account of slavery (and the century of racial discrimination which followed).
… is there any form of reparations that would be successful, and what is “success” in this case, anyway?
This is a very, very difficult issue.
I would suggest that we need to begin by agreeing on what has happened that requires a solution, and where exactly the harm and the benefits lie today.
Otherwise, our nation could never agree on anything relating to reparations, even, perhaps, a consensus that reparations aren’t warranted or would be ill-advised.
Your own comments are a wonderful example of this need for a greater shared understanding of the problem, since you argue fiercely against the weight of historical evidence that slavery produced relatively little benefit (apparently mostly in the South) and that this benefit was wiped out long ago.
a black american says:
James your arguments are silly, 1 million lives were lost, and you put a sum value on them, and you completely disregard the fact that the South was destroyed, let me repeat DESTROYED! Where was the benefit of that, it really does not matter how much was made, if its all gone.
You admit that the US economy soon recovered after the war, this in intself is evidence that slavery did not drive this economy, and an example of money in the hands of free consumers is the greatest reparation everyone can enjoy.
By compensating one group with tax payers money, you are punishing another group, its plain and simple.
As a teacher of American history I know that it was the turn of the 20th century, that American industry had superseded its European counterparts economically (after slavery) during those years Americas economy grew, but it did not exceed the rest of the world until after slavery.
Educational advances in science, technology, and industry have not only profoundly shaped America’s economic success, but have also contributed to its distinct political institutions, social structure, educational system, and cultural identity. American values of meritocracy, entrepreneurialism, and self-sufficiency are drawn from its legacy of pioneering technical advances and the freedom of its people.
Speaking for myself, I don’t need to be lectured on what will make me feel better, I dont’t need an apolgy or reparation, it will only make me feel inferior to accept that notion.
The only reparation I need was given to us, its called freedom.
James says:
James your arguments are silly, 1 million lives were lost, and you put a sum value on them, and you completely disregard the fact that the South was destroyed, let me repeat DESTROYED!
It’s true that about 650,000 lives were lost in the U.S. Civil War, and that’s a terrible thing. However, this isn’t about putting a monetary value on their lives, but saying that their lives aren’t to be balanced against the benefits of slavery today. The rest of the population, and all who came afterward, still benefited tremendously from slavery, even if those men lost their lives in part because of slavery.
The South was hardly destroyed, but the point is that the nation as a whole derived tremendous economic benefits from slavery, and enjoyed the fruits of slavery both before and after the Civil War.
If you want to argue that the North benefited far more from slavery in the years immediately following the Civil War, that’s fine. Today, however, the South is doing just fine, and what it has is attributable largely to slavery, just as is the case elsewhere in the country.
You admit that the US economy soon recovered after the war, this in intself is evidence that slavery did not drive this economy ….
Hardly. It’s true that cotton was more expensive to produce following the war than afterward. But the American South was already the world leader in cotton production because of slavery, and it wasn’t going to lose that position altogether, simply because its costs were now more in line with those of foreign producers.
More importantly, the North had already industrialized because of slavery, and that process wasn’t reversible. In fact, it was almost unheard-of for a nation outside of Europe to industrialize at that time. The U.S. managed to do so with the help of slavery, and its industrial economy continued to expand in the generations following the Civil War, thanks to the fact that it had been able to use slavery and the slave trade to industrialize at all.
By compensating one group with tax payers money, you are punishing another group, its plain and simple.
Not punishing, per se, but certainly taking something away.
The awkward issue raised by reparations advocates (and I’m not one of them), is that much of what U.S. consumers have today would not exist without the nation’s history of slavery, while those who would be compensated still suffer harm because of that history. In other words, even though today’s citizens bear no responsibility for what happened, they do possess the benefits which lead to the harm being addressed.
These are the facts which we need to understand, and to grapple with, if we’re to begin to make sense of this history, and how it affects our society and guides our choices, today.
As a teacher of American history I know that it was the turn of the 20th century, that American industry had superseded its European counterparts economically
That’s absolutely right. The U.S. economy gradually overtook those of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, after slavery was abolished.
However, the foundations for the development of the U.S. economy were laid prior to the Civil War, when the U.S. managed to pull off the remarkable feat of transitioning from an agrarian to an industrial economy. This was only possible with slavery and the slave trade.
It’s true that there have been phenomenal advances since that time, and that U.S. values have been vital to that process. However, it’s equally true that we didn’t gain all that we have merely by merit and the pioneering spirit.
I also wouldn’t dream of telling anyone what would make them feel better, or whether they should want an apology or reparations.
a black american says:
Your argument that America benefitted from slavery is all part of your belief in reparations, it is an insult to me to think that America was better off from an economic standpoint with them. I would argue that America would have exceeded the rest of the world much quicker if slavery had not existed. But if it makes you feel better believing slavery was more beneficial to Americas expansion vs a slave free America, I can understand your underlying reasons.
James says:
Your argument that America benefitted from slavery is all part of your belief in reparations
That would be difficult, since I don’t believe in reparations.
I do believe in telling our history honestly and fully, even if the facts might challenge our beliefs about ourselves and our society.
it is an insult to me to think that America was better off from an economic standpoint with them
You can be insulted all you want, but of course your nation benefited economically from the free labor of four million enslaved people.
I would argue that America would have exceeded the rest of the world much quicker if slavery had not existed.
That’s simply not possible. As President John Quincy Adams noted, while indicating that this was not an easy thing to say, slavery was essential to our colonial economic success, north and south, which allowed us to gain independence from Great Britain at all. After that, slavery drove the American economy until the Civil War, and, as I’ve said repeatedly, permitted us to industrialize at all. This laid an essential foundation for our subsequent economic success, which was entirely based on that industrialization.
a black american says:
Did we need slaves, no we did not, did we need able bodied people to do the work, yes we did!
Did our nation benefit economically, to an extent yes, my point is we would have benefitted even more (economically) if these people were free, and if they were part of the economic system (as 4 million consumers driving consumer spending).
I would sooner argue how slavery hurt our economy and held it back, the evidence is clear how after slavery we zoomed past the world!
James says:
Did we need slaves, no we did not, did we need able bodied people to do the work, yes we did!
First, this country suffered from a labor shortage during the entire period in question. This is one reason why slave labor was used–there simply weren’t enough laborers.
Second, it wasn’t just about having enough labor to produce vast quantities of, for instance, cotton. It was about being able to produce cotton so cheaply that the American South could dominate the European market for cotton, and the North could take the surplus profits and plow them into building a cotton textile industry, which with privileged access to that cheap, slave-produced cotton could gain a foothold and expand.
we would have benefitted even more (economically) if these people were free
Even if we had been able to import hundreds of thousands of Africans to live permanently in this country, they would not have worked so hard, or for so little cost. This is elementary to an understanding of what slavery was, and why people would go to such lengths for slave labor.
Nor would they have become four million valuable consumers with a short time, without being paid handsome wages. This would have completely negated the unique benefits of a vast system of slave labor.
I would sooner argue how slavery hurt our economy and held it back, the evidence is clear how after slavery we zoomed past the world!
This statement simply has no basis. The essential foundations for that later success were laid during the period of slavery. This is a basic fact of U.S. economic history, from which everything that came later flowed.
a black american says:
Slavery was not free labor, there was cost associated with them, purchase, clothing, housing, food, medical, some education, and then you had to hire security to keep the slaves in line.
In todays costs, it would be cheaper to pay a wage, as well as it may have been back then.
For you to tell me a slave worked harder than a man making a wage, throws the whole principle of free trade and hard work out the window.
James says:
Yes, there were certainly costs associated with slave labor. Although you might be surprised to know how little slave masters actually spent on “medical” costs and “education” for their slaves.
It would not, however, have been cheaper to pay wages then, nor would it now. Think about it: workers expect to be able to pay for food, clothing, housing and other expenses, and certainly to be able to spend more on these things as free people than slave masters spend on them for their slaves.
By your reasoning, slave labor was always a costly mistake. In fact, however, slavery has been common throughout human history, and economic analyses have shown that slave labor has been used when, and only when, it has been profitable.
a black american says:
I take that back, slavery did hurt the economy by keeping the wages of free men down, concentrating the wealth into the hands of a few. I do believe that a free man making a wage will work harder then a slave.
James says:
If you really teach American history, then you’re well aware that the American colonies, and then the United States through the Civil War, was a settler society and faced an acute labor shortage. This is, in fact, a central reason for the mass importation of slave labor. American wages were at a premium, not kept low by the presence of slave labor.
What always strikes me is how confident people can be that certain basic, uncomfortable facts of U.S. history, such as its enrichment through slave labor, simply can’t be true.
a black american says:
The reason why whites (north) went to war was economic rather than over slavery, it was depressing their wages, just like illegal immigrantion depresses wages today.
James says:
The reason why whites (north) went to war was economic rather than over slavery, it was depressing their wages ….
It’s certainly true that there were white, working-class northerners who resented the use of slave labor in the south.
However, that doesn’t mean that slavery had a net negative impact on the U.S. economy. To repeat once again, slavery vastly enriched the nation, and laid a necessary foundation for our current prosperity and way of life.
And, for what it’s worth, workers in economic competition with slave labor didn’t drive the Union to war with the Confederacy. You’ll find that middle- and upper-class interests dominated northern politics at the time of the Civil War, and the working-class population of the north was deeply divided over both abolition and conflict with the south.
James Baldwin on race: ‘Do not blame me’ | The Living Consequences says:
[...] Here is an extended quotation from Baldwin’s essay, which brilliantly deconstructs a response from Americans to their own history which, unfortunately, is still all too common: [...]
Abiye says:
BlackVietVet, it is not your place to judge or assess me. I do not agree with Straitblack’s comments, but I can certainly understand where feelings like that come from. There is no place for hate in my life and I am very thankful for the life I have but I refuse to blindly follow a country just because I happened to be born here. I respect your opinion but I suggest that you come up with a constructive argument rather than throw stones at my opinions. Let’s keep it professional.
Abiye says:
BlackVietVet, do not apologize for me. I have a different opinion from you and so does Straitblack. Honestly I feel your opinion is very convenient and comfortable for a black in america because you don’t want to stir the pot. It is easy to follow along and believe everything you are taught. It is not easy to speak out about injustices that your ancestors suffered. As you can tell of the commentors in here I am the minority and I have grown to embrace it. Let me make it clear that our ancestors suffered, they did their part, now it is time for us to speak out about it honestly and honor what they did for us and for this nation.
Rick S says:
James:
“Not punishing, per se, but certainly taking something away.
The awkward issue raised by reparations advocates (and I’m not one of them), is that much of what U.S. consumers have today would not exist without the nation’s history of slavery, while those who would be compensated still suffer harm because of that history. In other words, even though today’s citizens bear no responsibility for what happened, they do possess the benefits which lead to the harm being addressed.”
?? Are you really listening to yourself when you and “they” say this? Is there an inner dialog going on? Most of what US AND WORLD consumers have today is not a direct product of slavery. Take for example that fact that we are currently using a means of communications that would have seemed magic even as recently as the 1900s. Motor vehicles, planes, cloth’s (yes cloths not clothing), and other consumer items that we purchase on a regular basis are not attributable to slavery. You might say that the industrialization of the North (and the world by the way) was brought about on the backs of slaves but you would be wrong in stating that as fact. The Industrial Revolution was driven by technological advances (steam engines that worked, new engineering techniques, new materials, etc.). Yes it utilized the products of slavery but you cannot state as fact that if slavery did not exist the industrialization of the North and the rest of the world would not have taken place.
As for reparation I have enough taken away from me simply because I’ve gotten off my @$S and worked. I’ve worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one ‘gave’ me anything that anyone else couldn’t have gotten.
In response to a previous post that you made regarding my “opportunities”, yes there are opportunities that minorities have that I, as a ‘white’ male do not. I don’t have opportunities to college funding that minorities have, I don’t have certain opportunities for government contracts that minorities have, I wouldn’t have equal opportunities in advancement at some agencies or jobs that minorities have (those firefighters WERE denied advancement due to their race because immediately after the Supreme Court ruling they were advanced). So, yes, I have had enough taken away from me to support other families and people when I have a family of my own to take care of to house, feed, and educate. It pisses me off mightily that my hard work will go to educate someone I don’t know while my children may not be able to attend college because of the money taken away from me to give to someone else. That crap about “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need” is just that; a load of crap. Socialism is for the ants; far better “From each according to his ability; to each according to his efforts”. And, yes, I understand that we are our brothers keepers but you must also remember that even “God helps those who help themselves” so I will support equal opportunities and I expect the same consideration.
James says:
Most of what US AND WORLD consumers have today is not a direct product of slavery.
The issue of how much the global economy owes to historic slavery is another matter, Rick.
In terms of the U.S. economy, the simple fact is that much of our early wealth (meaning up until 1860) was generated from slavery and businesses directly dependent upon slavery. Everything that came afterward was the result of building upon this foundation and investing this early wealth.
Moreover, slavery seems to have been a necessary precondition for our early industrialization. If the U.S. had not industrialized via the cotton textile industry in the early 1800s, it is unlikely that we would have been able to do so until much, much later. Like most nations which did not industrialize at that time, we would likely still be struggling to industrialize and to compete with the leading economies of the world.
Take for example that fact that we are currently using a means of communications that would have seemed magic even as recently as the 1900s.
Yes, and which nations were able to develop such technology? To exploit it? Those which had developed and industrial and technological base in earlier generations, and were able to participate in newer advances and to exploit them for economic gain.
I think the confusion here may be about how economic progress occurs.
If a radically new and economically beneficial technology is discovered today, who will benefit? It will be initially developed in one or more nations, most likely among the advanced industrial economies of the age. The technology can probably be replicated by other such nations, but not by developing nations. In terms of economic exploitation, the advantage will almost certainly be to the nations with an advanced industrial and technological base, and to corporations with global market reach. Relatively poor, previously unsuccessful nations will not suddenly be able to exploit this technology and participate equally in the economic rewards.
The Industrial Revolution was driven by technological advances (steam engines that worked, new engineering techniques, new materials, etc.).< .i>
The industrial revolution was made possible by such advances, but most societies were utterly unable to participate.
Great Britain pioneered these techniques, and other European nations struggled, with limited success, to replicate them and join in early industrialization. Almost no nation outside of Europe was able to do so until much, much later.
The U.S. was, in fact, able to develop a cotton textile industry, which was the leading industry in the world, because it had surplus capital and cheap cotton from slavery and the slave trade. Otherwise, the U.S. would have had no resources to build an entire industry to compete with the world’s market leader, Britain, and would not have been able to be competitive in the global marketplace.
you cannot state as fact that if slavery did not exist the industrialization of the North … would not have taken place.
This is the accepted understanding of economic historians. See, for instance, the leading work by Nobel Prize-winning economist Douglass North, The Economic Growth of the United States, 1790-1860.
I omitted your reference to the rest of the world, since I am not arguing that the rest of the world industrialized because of slavery.
I’ve worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one ‘gave’ me anything that anyone else couldn’t have gotten.
You sound like actor Craig T. Nelson, complaining that no one gave him anything when he was on food stamps and welfare.
I’m sure you’ve had to work hard, and that you had to find the money to pay for college. But ask yourself, how is that you were able to find a way to pay for college, when most Americans are not able to go to college at all? Did you not benefit from good parenting or a sound home life? Did you grow up in abject poverty? In a crime-ridden neighborhood?
No one is saying that some white families don’t have it hard, and some black families are doing well. But white families in this country benefited from generations of vast government spending, limited to whites, which largely built the white middle class. On average, this largess, and the corresponding Jim Crow discrimination which kept black families from prospering, still has effects today.
yes there are opportunities that minorities have that I, as a ‘white’ male do not.
By “opportunities,” you don’t mean that you don’t have a chance to compete for the same spots as black citizens, because you do. And you don’t mean that blacks, on average, do better in admissions, hiring, and promotions than white people do, because they don’t.
Now, I’ll grant you that there is an inherent unfairness whenever someone is given a greater chance of being chosen over another simply because of their race. This is, at best, an imperfect solution, and I’m not arguing for it.
But you shouldn’t talk as if black people have it easier today in college admissions, government contracts, hiring or advancement. In fact, the statistics show that’s absolutely not true. Affirmative action programs, for instance, have benefited white people more than black, and have hardly made a dent in the disparities we face. The legacy of many generations of different opportunities for families of different races to accumulate resources is very much still with us, as is actual prejudice in admissions, hiring, promotions and contracting, even today. In short, it is still easier, on average, to be white than black with the legacy of history and present government programs.
It pisses me off mightily that my hard work will go to educate someone I don’t know while my children may not be able to attend college because of the money taken away from me to give to someone else.
This is a great example of what I’m talking about, Rick. What percentage of your income do you think is taken for the education of other people’s children? It’s absolutely minuscule. It doesn’t prevent you from sending your own children to college.
Meanwhile, who do you think the government is helping to send to college (mostly with loans, not grants)? Mostly white students. Your children will have an equal opportunity to take out those loans and grants.
The fact that there are a handful of scholarships limited to promising, hard-working students from less fortunate backgrounds who aren’t white doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of financial aid is color-blind, or that the vast majority of money spent to send children to school in this country is spent on white children.
Socialism is for the ants; far better “From each according to his ability; to each according to his efforts”.
I agree, Rick.
So what do you do about the fact that in this country, because of our history, each person doesn’t receive according to his or her own efforts?
What each person in this country receives is partly based on individual effort, of course, but also on the family one happens to be born into. In fact, research shows that most of where the average American ends up in life is due to how well his parents did, rather than his own effort.
Now, I have no interest in socialism or any other approach that tries to iron this out artificially. But you agree, clearly, that we should aim to make ours a society in which, to the greatest extent possible, it is individual effort which determines what each person receives in life. You’ve just said so.
So shouldn’t we at least acknowledge, and lament, the fact that the legacy of the past still heavily influences what Americans can achieve, above and beyond their own efforts?
Shouldn’t we at least be concerned that, because of our nation’s racist past, on the whole our black citizens are not reaping the same rewards for their efforts that white citizens do? You write as if the discrepancy were due to a lack of effort, when we know that simply isn’t true.
Rick S says:
James,
Are you saying that the grants and loans which I was able to obtain are not available to everyone? If you must know, they are. There are laws in place that state that denying access to those grants and loans based on race is illegal. However, grants from certain agencies (non-profit agencies) are NOT available to all they are available to a minority only based on race. I am NOT saying that blacks and other minorities in this country have had it easy or did not have it hard, history shows the opposite is true. What I am saying is that it is not the availability of education or business opportunities it is the belief or the attitude of the majority of the minority that holds them back. It is, mostly, the lack of push from the parents and the culture of the place in which they grew up in general that holds them back. Again I am not saying that they have not in the past had difficulties in these areas. But with the laws in place to make such opportunities available to them and all the other agencies in place to enable them they have not taken part in such opportunities. This is where the main focus should lie, not in blaming our ancestors for what they did or did not do, not in blaming the past or living in the past, or waiting for a hand-out. I’ll give anyone a hand-up but a hand-out, no. Give a man a fish and he can eat for a meal, teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime. We need to teach what benefits an education can provide and it MUST start with the parents of the minority children, they have the most impact on their children’s lives, what they say and more, what they do affects their children’s attitudes towards education and business opportunities. If the parents continue to be disconnected or disinterested in their childrens lives then where we are is where we will be and no amount of “Equal Opportunity” will change that.
As far as how much I pay for other children’s education, my wife and I earn well above the national average and we live in one of the poorest states in the US. So I know that what the majority of other people in my state does not cover their educational costs and the average family size is 3+ children. Where does the rest of the money come from? Those of us who make more money. So yes, I pay more for each of my children than they do and the rest of it goes to help pay for other people’s children. And what about grants for education that are based on parent’s annual income? Where does the money for those come from? Me and others like me who make decent money. So, if I am paying for all those other children to attend school and college, how can I pay for my children to go to college? Make more money? If so, the government takes more out. I have to save? What about the other families who are not making the money that we make do they save enough for their children to attend college? No, they rely on grants (and loans).
“By “opportunities,” you don’t mean that you don’t have a chance to compete for the same spots as black citizens, because you do. And you don’t mean that blacks, on average, do better in admissions, hiring, and promotions than white people do, because they don’t.”
I’ve worked in Government acquisitions and yes minorities have greater opportunities than do non-minorities. There are acquisition vehicles for contracting in government that are solely based on race. Native American, Alaskan Native, Black, etc. I don’t have opportunities to compete for those contracts as a white citizen. Minorities have had greater access to admissions to colleges. What they do with that access is completely up to them. Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on ‘need’. If you make over a certain amount per year you don’t get grants. I had to show that I had ‘lost’ my job to get the Pell grant that I got, and that grant is available to anyone.
“You sound like actor Craig T. Nelson, complaining that no one gave him anything when he was on food stamps and welfare.
I’m sure you’ve had to work hard, and that you had to find the money to pay for college. But ask yourself, how is that you were able to find a way to pay for college, when most Americans are not able to go to college at all? Did you not benefit from good parenting or a sound home life? Did you grow up in abject poverty? In a crime-ridden neighborhood?”
What does welfare or food stamps have do do with what I said? I never said I complained about what my background was or how I got where I am. I simply stated that, should they wish, opportunities to attend college and go on to a good career are available to anyone and my being proof of that. As far as where I grew up I grew up in many neighborhoods and sometimes my dad was absent (being deployed and all). One neighborhood in particular was very crime ridden (a housing project in Boston). I had a man tripped out on angel dust try to break into the bedroom I shared with 3 other boys)trying to get away from the cops. So please do not assume that just because I claim white heritage I grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth.
“So what do you do about the fact that in this country, because of our history, each person doesn’t receive according to his or her own efforts?”
What efforts are you referring to? If a child of any race does well in lower schools he/she can apply for scholarships to all universities. They, if their parents earn insufficient pay, apply for grants. They can apply for loans. They can work. If you came down to New Orleans and looked at the projects you would see that the majority of children are not doing well in school so they have little hope of attending college. This is the effort to which I am referring, getting out there and getting a job, working hard, not waiting for a handout. Staying out of trouble. Parents have to instill these values into the children instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them. If they wait it is too late and the child will be dead or in jail or working a minimum wage job(s) to make ends meet. There are other avenues out of the poverty that are available to anyone who has passed high school. The military was the route I chose as it was one with which I was familiar.
James says:
Rick,
Are you saying that the grants and loans which I was able to obtain are not available to everyone?
No, Rick, I’m not.
However, grants from certain agencies (non-profit agencies) are NOT available to all they are available to a minority only based on race.
Yes, there are private organizations with funding for disadvantaged groups, including historically disadvantaged racial minorities.
Now, if you don’t approve of those funds, I respect that. Let’s just not pretend that those funds mean that the pendulum has swung the other way, and that non-whites now have more opportunity in this country than whites do. Black families have endured many generations of discrimination, while white families accumulated resources through opportunities denied to blacks. Today, the accumulated weight of centuries of racial inequality leaves blacks distinctly disadvantaged, and the private funds you complain about are a drop in the bucket. They do not mean, for instance, that blacks overall now have more funding than whites. Just the opposite.
What I am saying is that it is not the availability of education or business opportunities it is the belief or the attitude of the majority of the minority that holds them back.
No, Rick. What is “holding them back” is that slavery and racial discrimination obviously generated a tremendous racial disparity in income, wealth, education and other factors.
What is “holding them back” is that there is no earthly way that most black families could have somehow caught up to the average white family by now.
Think about it: how would that happen? Even if opportunities had been equal since, say, the 1960s and 1970s, how would all but the luckiest black families have caught up to the average white family, which was also working hard to get ahead at the same time?
Yes, there have been very modest programs to assist this process. Affirmative action, right or wrong, has helped, but only a little, and has mostly benefited white people. There have been a few private scholarships for black students only. But these resources and opportunities don’t even compensate for the remaining prejudice and discrimination we can still observe today, much less overcome generations of different accumulation of resources, tangible and intangible.
Just to give you one concrete example, after the generations of slavery and the generations of Jim Crow, the average white family in this country has a net worth that is $142,600 more than the average black family’s. That gap didn’t arise because of bad attitudes, and we haven’t done anything that should have eliminated it by now.
It is, mostly, the lack of push from the parents and the culture of the place in which they grew up in general that holds them back.
This is a racial stereotype, Rick. You’re painting all black people with a very broad brush, even while insisting that not all white people be seen as the same.
In fact, even if we grant that there are black communities with unhelpful cultural values, so what? We see much the same in poor white communities. And if some black communities have more than their share of such values, where do you think that comes from? What in the history of the last few generations in this country might have caused some poor black communities to develop unhelpful cultural values?
Finally, what possible basis do you have for believing that it is “mostly” these values which are responsible for today’s racial disparities?
In fact, these racial gaps have existed since the moment slavery ended. We can track their existence, year by year, since that time. There is no question where the inequality comes from. If you believe that individual values are a necessary part of any solution, that’s fine. But you can’t discount the substantial resource gap inherited by each generation, which is more than enough to account for what we see.
I know that what the majority of other people in my state does not cover their educational costs and the average family size is 3+ children. Where does the rest of the money come from?
Doesn’t much of that money come from private financial aid from colleges and universities? Doesn’t the rest of it come primarily from federal assistance for higher education, which comes largely from taxpayers in other states?
So, if I am paying for all those other children to attend school and college, how can I pay for my children to go to college?
What share of your taxes do you believe goes towards the college education of other children? Isn’t it just a few dollars? Federal spending for higher education is only a small fraction of the federal budget.
I’ve worked in Government acquisitions and yes minorities have greater opportunities than do non-minorities.
No, contractors with a certain percentage of minority ownership have an edge obtaining federal government contracts.
That doesn’t mean that minorities have more opportunities in this society than whites. In fact, programs like this have done very little to assist minorities, just like affirmative action, which despite its reputation primarily benefits whites.
Minorities have had greater access to admissions to colleges.
Again, no, they don’t. You mean that students get extra consideration in the admissions process for belonging to a racial minority. That doesn’t mean that they have greater access to higher education; in fact, we know that minorities in this country have less of a chance to go to college, even given similar abilities.
You’re failing to take into account, for instance, the fact that it helps students enormously to come from a family that earns “well above the national average,” and few minority families do. This is obviously a vicious circle, in which families which were disadvantaged in previous generations continue to face additional obstacles today.
Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on ‘need’.
Actually, much public and private aid for higher education is based on loans, not grants, which is one major reason why those with fewer financial resources often don’t go to college: the burden of repaying loans falls much harder on poorer families, and it often doesn’t seem worth the gamble.
You’re also wrong to assert that “loans are available to anyone.” Loans for college are not easy to obtain without parents who have good financial resources and stability, which is a further disadvantage that is passed on from one generation to the next.
What does welfare or food stamps have do do with what I said?
I was referring, as I said, to actor Craig T. Nelson’s comment that he received food stamps and welfare, yet no one was helping him. I said that you sound like that, when you complain that you had to do it all yourself, and unlike minorities, no one “gave you anything.”
I never said I complained about what my background was or how I got where I am.
You said, “I’ve worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one ‘gave’ me anything that anyone else couldn’t have gotten.”
I’m not suggesting that you haven’t endured hardships or worked hard in your life. But this doesn’t mean that you can simply dismiss the plight of others as their own responsibility.
I know Boston quite well. There are tremendous racial disparities in Boston, and still quite a bit of prejudice, especially in the rougher neighborhoods. To suggest that race is now irrelevant in struggling to get ahead is simply not realistic.
What efforts are you referring to? If a child of any race does well in lower schools he/she can apply for scholarships to all universities.
That fact that any child can, in theory, apply to any university is just that, a theory.
In fact, children in poorer neighborhoods (and especially in poorer black communities) do not attend schools that are as good as those in middle-class or wealthy suburbs. From what you’ve said, I suspect you’ve faced that fact yourself. Colleges don’t take those schools as seriously. Teachers in the poorer schools do not generally push their better students to prepare for college, while in the better communities, teachers tend to push almost everyone to aim for college.
But it starts earlier than that. Poorer children in this country start off doing less well in school, and the gap grows dramatically in their earliest years of schooling. Are poorer children inherently less smart? Are they overwhelmingly inherently lazy, in ways that are their own fault?
I think the more likely explanation is that poverty, lack of community resources, and similar factors matter to opportunity. No doubt, some of the most talented and hard-working young people can persevere and overcome these obstacles. Perhaps you think only those children deserve success. But the reality is that children from other backgrounds can enjoy much more success, with far less effort or talent.
This is the effort to which I am referring, getting out there and getting a job, working hard, not waiting for a handout. Staying out of trouble.
I strongly agree with you about the importance of these values for all people.
However, if we simultaneously turn our backs on the structural problems in our society that provide some young people with far greater challenges than others, if we tell them that hard work is the key but do not reward hard work, this will only breed cynicism and despair.
Parents have to instill these values into the children instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them. If they wait it is too late and the child will be dead or in jail ….
I think this is a very revealing comment, Rick.
You’re thinking specifically of impoverished neighborhoods, where this might be true.
In middle-class and upper-class communities, of course, these values are still important. But if parents fail to instill these values early on, it is doubtful that the price will be a child who is dead or in jail.
The military was the route I chose as it was one with which I was familiar.
I think familiarity is one of the many factors we face here, Rick.
For some young people, the familiar route is the military.
For others, it may be a minimum-wage, dead-end job.
What our communities know, what is familiar, profoundly shapes what we conceive of doing. If some communities have known only poverty and discrimination for many generations, what surprise is it that today, that proves to be a vicious cycle for so many?
Rick S says:
“the average white family in this country has a net worth that is $142,600 more than the average black family’s”
James,
Where did you get these numbers from? This is not the national annual “average” salary for any race group. It may be the total lifetime earnings, and, if so, then that is not really that much difference over a 30-40 year span ($4000 a year).
As far as complaining I wasn’t, I was simply stating fact.
As far as the money spent on education by the state it comes from my, and other, wage earner’s taxes based on income. So this means that having a higher income you pay more in taxes. Let’s say I am taxed $12,000 a year based on my wages. Another, lower wage earner does not pay as much in taxes per year. Let’s say they pay about $6,000 a year in taxes. Now, if the cost of sending a child to school is $9000 a year then obviously the extra $3000 for the child of the lower income family has to come from somewhere, states can’t print their own money anymore. It is simple mathematics and it means that I am paying for their child to attend school.
“What our communities know, what is familiar, profoundly shapes what we conceive of doing. If some communities have known only poverty and discrimination for many generations, what surprise is it that today, that proves to be a vicious cycle for so many?”
I like this and agree very much that it is your environment that shapes the way you think. Culture is a very big contributor to our way of thinking. Now, the question is, how do we break the cycle? How do we get the children at risk free of their culture? Do we do this by saying “I’m sorry my forefathers held you in slavery? No, that won’t do a thing except make us feel better. Do we do this by redistribution of wealth? No, redistribution of wealth would only serve to prolong the cycle by keeping those in most need in that situation. Hand outs never work. Hands up will work if the recipient is willing to help. Even God stated “I help those who help themselves.” (If you believe in that sort of thing). We can’t keep raising the minimum wage because it affects the cost of so everything else. Take for example a hamburger. If it costs $3.00 to make and you sell it for $4.00 then the minimum wage goes up by $.50 the cost of making the hamburger is now $3.50 to make enough to pay the bills and make a profit you will have to raise the price by $.50 to $4.50. A wage earner will now have to pay more for the same product. He will ask for more money to maintain the lifestyle he had before the increase. To pay for the bills and make profit his employer will have to raise prices on his goods… We have a cycle of economics as well. Any change in the cost of one thing can and does have an effect on almost everything else. “Trickle Up Economics” to paraphrase.
Do we subsidize their wages? Again we get into communism or socialism with its inherent problems.
Do we subsidize their housing? We are doing that and we see where it has gotten us. We have ghetto cultures that do not value that which would get them or their children out of such an environment.
So where do we start? Where do we apply our good intentions? What form should such good intentions or actions take?
James says:
Rick, I’ll be sure to respond to your comment fully later, as you’ve clearly taken the time to think through this issue and to share your thoughts with us in detail.
For the moment, I just want to clear up an initial misconception:
Where did you get these numbers from? This is not the national annual “average” salary for any race group.
A slight miscommunication, Rick. I said “net worth,” not “income” or total lifetime earnings. Obviously, each of these is important, and in each case, the racial gap has narrowed a bit but has never been closed.
bobbo says:
That “net worth” versus “net income” is a very big deal especially in economic downturns like we have now. My family for instance has helped one another buy first homes, return home in between jobs, pass cars around rather than trade them in, financial help from time to time when needed.
I’ve counted my blessings to be so advantaged. Poor families don’t have the advantage of NET WORTH and I think they suffer disproportionately from it.
I’m only thinking of this because my best friend’s family has higher net worth than my own and he gets better cars from his dad than I do from mine. Its just not fair!!!!!
Rick S says:
James:
“You mean that students get extra consideration in the admissions process for belonging to a racial minority.”
This does mean that a minority child has greater access or opportunities to attend higher education than does a white child of similar abilities and grades. There are only so many admissions each year at every college and the more that are taken up the fewer are available (obviously). If a minority child gets extra consideration for entrance and accepts that entrance then that seat is not available to anyone else. And, if there is extra consideration, in what form does it take? If, for example a minority child has a “C” average and a white child has a “C+” average the extra consideration would mean that the “C+” child may not be able to attend as the seat would be taken by the “C” minority child. This, again, is simple mathematics.
“You’re failing to take into account, for instance, the fact that it helps students enormously to come from a family that earns “well above the national average,” and few minority families do.”
It is obvious that few families of any sort do not earn “well above the national average”. So you could and should say there are disproportionally fewer children of middle to lower income families attending college than those of families earning more than the national average. The question comes in to play where a child of a family that earns more than the national average still cannot attend college because his family earns too much money to receive grants and would need to take out loans, which they couldn’t pay back. This happens all the time. What do these children need to do?
Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on ‘need’.
“Actually, much public and private aid for higher education is based on loans, not grants, which is one major reason why those with fewer financial resources often don’t go to college: the burden of repaying loans falls much harder on poorer families, and it often doesn’t seem worth the gamble.
You’re also wrong to assert that “loans are available to anyone.” Loans for college are not easy to obtain without parents who have good financial resources and stability, which is a further disadvantage that is passed on from one generation to the next.”
Yes loans are fairly easy to obtain no matter what your financial situation is. Having taken out such loans to help pay for college myself I know how easy it is to obtain such loans. There may be a situation where the child must wait for a year or so before attending to show his/her independence from his parents prior to applying for such loans but that is not such a great sacrifice.
As for grants, I can only speak from experience. I was able to apply and receive certain grants, which were and are available to anyone in a similar financial situation. I just had to show that my expected income fell below a certain level for the upcoming year.
You speak of opportunities available to minorities vs. those available to whites. I state there are opportunities available to minorities that are not available to whites, which take the form of extra consideration for advancement (equal opportunity such as in the case of the firefighters), extra consideration for college placement, extra consideration for Government contracts and contract vehicles, and extra consideration for certain grants or loans both for business and education. Whether or not a minority citizen takes advantage of these extra considerations is totally up to the individual. There must be some percieved benefit otherwise no one would take such advantage. I guess I am saying that this is what we need to accomplish for all. Show the benefit, give them the vision of what life could be outside their current culture or place in life. One can only view the world through the eyes of the culture in which one was raised. If the culture does not value a thing then it is extremely unlikely that an individual of that culture will value that thing. So how do we change a culture? We have a difficult enough time changing our cultural view of math and science in the US. Sports figures and rock stars are our heros not the scientists and business people who are making the system work. How do we change that? I’m not sure where to throw a sabbot into the machine to break the cycle.
I’ve really enjoyed our discussion on this topic.
Peterson says:
This country is in worse shape than I thought. I would not have expected so many people to contest what your cousin wrote. It’s clear that compassion and empathy are not common amongst the American people. All I can say is a child growing up in the inner city does not have half the opportunities of a child growing up in suburbia. I can say this because I grew in spite of major hindrances to my development. Who should I blame? No one. But I must be sure to do my best to provide for those who do not put themselves in that place. Sure I could blame it on the parents but how does help the child? Sure I could blame it on whites but most did not have a thing to do with my upbringing? The point is that no one is to blame. If though we cannot have common compassion for little children who have no control over where they are born then what has this country come to?
I wager that the whole of civil rights argument can rest on this idea: that children ought to have equal opportunities and be able to compete on a level playing field. Have we reached that point. Not at all. Will we ever reach that point? Not when people are self-centered and can only think about what they themselves went through. Yes, you’re not personally responsible for the slave trade. But does that mean you can turn a blind eye to the inequalities that exist today. Is it fair for your child to receive a good education while another child who is not responsible at all for his circumstances or upbringing suffers with a sub-par education system.
James you have done an excellent job defending your opinions against a wave of obstinate, compassionless and ignorant people. You represent that glimmer of hope that men like MLK spoke directly to and knew would be the voice of change.
bobbo says:
A question: if our nation recognized that everyone benefits when everyone is provided an education/training that maximizes their potential by however that might be defined, would there be a need for any consideration of race or past circumstances?
In other words, if the USA in fact provided tuition, support, school based housing, basic medical so that every person who wanted an education could get one would the Living Consequences have any relevance outside of a study of history?
In other words, is an appeal to past injustices just a redundant unnecessary argument in support of the need for sound social services in general or is it an independent specific argument for itself in isolation?