Wed 19 Aug, 2009
Katrina Browne on slavery apology at CNN.com
Comments (313) Filed under: RemediesTags: Apologies, Katrina Browne, Racial discrimination, Slavery, U.S. Senate
My cousin Katrina Browne has a commentary up this afternoon at CNN.com, entitled “Slavery needs more than an apology.”
Katrina is the director and producer of the Emmy-nominated PBS documentary Traces of the Trade: A Story from the Deep North. The film explores the history and legacy of our ancestors, who were the most successful slave-trading family in U.S. history.
In her commentary, Katrina writes about the significance of the U.S. Senate’s apology this summer for the nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination. She discusses how little most Americans understand about this history or its enduring significance today, and asks why we cannot embrace this history and address its consequences in a positive spirit today.
Abiye says:
BlackVietVet, it is not your place to judge or assess me. I do not agree with Straitblack's comments, but I can certainly understand where feelings like that come from. There is no place for hate in my life and I am very thankful for the life I have but I refuse to blindly follow a country just because I happened to be born here. I respect your opinion but I suggest that you come up with a constructive argument rather than throw stones at my opinions. Let's keep it professional.
Abiye says:
BlackVietVet, do not apologize for me. I have a different opinion from you and so does Straitblack. Honestly I feel your opinion is very convenient and comfortable for a black in america because you don't want to stir the pot. It is easy to follow along and believe everything you are taught. It is not easy to speak out about injustices that your ancestors suffered. As you can tell of the commentors in here I am the minority and I have grown to embrace it. Let me make it clear that our ancestors suffered, they did their part, now it is time for us to speak out about it honestly and honor what they did for us and for this nation.
Rick S says:
James:
"Not punishing, per se, but certainly taking something away.
The awkward issue raised by reparations advocates (and I’m not one of them), is that much of what U.S. consumers have today would not exist without the nation’s history of slavery, while those who would be compensated still suffer harm because of that history. In other words, even though today’s citizens bear no responsibility for what happened, they do possess the benefits which lead to the harm being addressed."
?? Are you really listening to yourself when you and "they" say this? Is there an inner dialog going on? Most of what US AND WORLD consumers have today is not a direct product of slavery. Take for example that fact that we are currently using a means of communications that would have seemed magic even as recently as the 1900s. Motor vehicles, planes, cloth's (yes cloths not clothing), and other consumer items that we purchase on a regular basis are not attributable to slavery. You might say that the industrialization of the North (and the world by the way) was brought about on the backs of slaves but you would be wrong in stating that as fact. The Industrial Revolution was driven by technological advances (steam engines that worked, new engineering techniques, new materials, etc.). Yes it utilized the products of slavery but you cannot state as fact that if slavery did not exist the industrialization of the North and the rest of the world would not have taken place.
As for reparation I have enough taken away from me simply because I've gotten off my @$S and worked. I've worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one 'gave' me anything that anyone else couldn't have gotten.
In response to a previous post that you made regarding my "opportunities", yes there are opportunities that minorities have that I, as a 'white' male do not. I don't have opportunities to college funding that minorities have, I don't have certain opportunities for government contracts that minorities have, I wouldn't have equal opportunities in advancement at some agencies or jobs that minorities have (those firefighters WERE denied advancement due to their race because immediately after the Supreme Court ruling they were advanced). So, yes, I have had enough taken away from me to support other families and people when I have a family of my own to take care of to house, feed, and educate. It pisses me off mightily that my hard work will go to educate someone I don't know while my children may not be able to attend college because of the money taken away from me to give to someone else. That crap about "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need" is just that; a load of crap. Socialism is for the ants; far better "From each according to his ability; to each according to his efforts". And, yes, I understand that we are our brothers keepers but you must also remember that even "God helps those who help themselves" so I will support equal opportunities and I expect the same consideration.
James says:
Most of what US AND WORLD consumers have today is not a direct product of slavery.
The issue of how much the global economy owes to historic slavery is another matter, Rick.
In terms of the U.S. economy, the simple fact is that much of our early wealth (meaning up until 1860) was generated from slavery and businesses directly dependent upon slavery. Everything that came afterward was the result of building upon this foundation and investing this early wealth.
Moreover, slavery seems to have been a necessary precondition for our early industrialization. If the U.S. had not industrialized via the cotton textile industry in the early 1800s, it is unlikely that we would have been able to do so until much, much later. Like most nations which did not industrialize at that time, we would likely still be struggling to industrialize and to compete with the leading economies of the world.
Take for example that fact that we are currently using a means of communications that would have seemed magic even as recently as the 1900s.
Yes, and which nations were able to develop such technology? To exploit it? Those which had developed and industrial and technological base in earlier generations, and were able to participate in newer advances and to exploit them for economic gain.
I think the confusion here may be about how economic progress occurs.
If a radically new and economically beneficial technology is discovered today, who will benefit? It will be initially developed in one or more nations, most likely among the advanced industrial economies of the age. The technology can probably be replicated by other such nations, but not by developing nations. In terms of economic exploitation, the advantage will almost certainly be to the nations with an advanced industrial and technological base, and to corporations with global market reach. Relatively poor, previously unsuccessful nations will not suddenly be able to exploit this technology and participate equally in the economic rewards.
The Industrial Revolution was driven by technological advances (steam engines that worked, new engineering techniques, new materials, etc.).<.i>
The industrial revolution was made possible by such advances, but most societies were utterly unable to participate.
Great Britain pioneered these techniques, and other European nations struggled, with limited success, to replicate them and join in early industrialization. Almost no nation outside of Europe was able to do so until much, much later.
The U.S. was, in fact, able to develop a cotton textile industry, which was the leading industry in the world, because it had surplus capital and cheap cotton from slavery and the slave trade. Otherwise, the U.S. would have had no resources to build an entire industry to compete with the world's market leader, Britain, and would not have been able to be competitive in the global marketplace.
you cannot state as fact that if slavery did not exist the industrialization of the North … would not have taken place.
This is the accepted understanding of economic historians. See, for instance, the leading work by Nobel Prize-winning economist Douglass North, The Economic Growth of the United States, 1790-1860.
I omitted your reference to the rest of the world, since I am not arguing that the rest of the world industrialized because of slavery.
I’ve worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one ‘gave’ me anything that anyone else couldn’t have gotten.
You sound like actor Craig T. Nelson, complaining that no one gave him anything when he was on food stamps and welfare.
I'm sure you've had to work hard, and that you had to find the money to pay for college. But ask yourself, how is that you were able to find a way to pay for college, when most Americans are not able to go to college at all? Did you not benefit from good parenting or a sound home life? Did you grow up in abject poverty? In a crime-ridden neighborhood?
No one is saying that some white families don't have it hard, and some black families are doing well. But white families in this country benefited from generations of vast government spending, limited to whites, which largely built the white middle class. On average, this largess, and the corresponding Jim Crow discrimination which kept black families from prospering, still has effects today.
yes there are opportunities that minorities have that I, as a ‘white’ male do not.
By "opportunities," you don't mean that you don't have a chance to compete for the same spots as black citizens, because you do. And you don't mean that blacks, on average, do better in admissions, hiring, and promotions than white people do, because they don't.
Now, I'll grant you that there is an inherent unfairness whenever someone is given a greater chance of being chosen over another simply because of their race. This is, at best, an imperfect solution, and I'm not arguing for it.
But you shouldn't talk as if black people have it easier today in college admissions, government contracts, hiring or advancement. In fact, the statistics show that's absolutely not true. Affirmative action programs, for instance, have benefited white people more than black, and have hardly made a dent in the disparities we face. The legacy of many generations of different opportunities for families of different races to accumulate resources is very much still with us, as is actual prejudice in admissions, hiring, promotions and contracting, even today. In short, it is still easier, on average, to be white than black with the legacy of history and present government programs.
It pisses me off mightily that my hard work will go to educate someone I don’t know while my children may not be able to attend college because of the money taken away from me to give to someone else.
This is a great example of what I'm talking about, Rick. What percentage of your income do you think is taken for the education of other people's children? It's absolutely minuscule. It doesn't prevent you from sending your own children to college.
Meanwhile, who do you think the government is helping to send to college (mostly with loans, not grants)? Mostly white students. Your children will have an equal opportunity to take out those loans and grants.
The fact that there are a handful of scholarships limited to promising, hard-working students from less fortunate backgrounds who aren't white doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of financial aid is color-blind, or that the vast majority of money spent to send children to school in this country is spent on white children.
Socialism is for the ants; far better “From each according to his ability; to each according to his efforts”.
I agree, Rick.
So what do you do about the fact that in this country, because of our history, each person doesn't receive according to his or her own efforts?
What each person in this country receives is partly based on individual effort, of course, but also on the family one happens to be born into. In fact, research shows that most of where the average American ends up in life is due to how well his parents did, rather than his own effort.
Now, I have no interest in socialism or any other approach that tries to iron this out artificially. But you agree, clearly, that we should aim to make ours a society in which, to the greatest extent possible, it is individual effort which determines what each person receives in life. You've just said so.
So shouldn't we at least acknowledge, and lament, the fact that the legacy of the past still heavily influences what Americans can achieve, above and beyond their own efforts?
Shouldn't we at least be concerned that, because of our nation's racist past, on the whole our black citizens are not reaping the same rewards for their efforts that white citizens do? You write as if the discrepancy were due to a lack of effort, when we know that simply isn't true.
Rick S says:
James,
Are you saying that the grants and loans which I was able to obtain are not available to everyone? If you must know, they are. There are laws in place that state that denying access to those grants and loans based on race is illegal. However, grants from certain agencies (non-profit agencies) are NOT available to all they are available to a minority only based on race. I am NOT saying that blacks and other minorities in this country have had it easy or did not have it hard, history shows the opposite is true. What I am saying is that it is not the availability of education or business opportunities it is the belief or the attitude of the majority of the minority that holds them back. It is, mostly, the lack of push from the parents and the culture of the place in which they grew up in general that holds them back. Again I am not saying that they have not in the past had difficulties in these areas. But with the laws in place to make such opportunities available to them and all the other agencies in place to enable them they have not taken part in such opportunities. This is where the main focus should lie, not in blaming our ancestors for what they did or did not do, not in blaming the past or living in the past, or waiting for a hand-out. I'll give anyone a hand-up but a hand-out, no. Give a man a fish and he can eat for a meal, teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime. We need to teach what benefits an education can provide and it MUST start with the parents of the minority children, they have the most impact on their children's lives, what they say and more, what they do affects their children's attitudes towards education and business opportunities. If the parents continue to be disconnected or disinterested in their childrens lives then where we are is where we will be and no amount of "Equal Opportunity" will change that.
As far as how much I pay for other children's education, my wife and I earn well above the national average and we live in one of the poorest states in the US. So I know that what the majority of other people in my state does not cover their educational costs and the average family size is 3+ children. Where does the rest of the money come from? Those of us who make more money. So yes, I pay more for each of my children than they do and the rest of it goes to help pay for other people's children. And what about grants for education that are based on parent's annual income? Where does the money for those come from? Me and others like me who make decent money. So, if I am paying for all those other children to attend school and college, how can I pay for my children to go to college? Make more money? If so, the government takes more out. I have to save? What about the other families who are not making the money that we make do they save enough for their children to attend college? No, they rely on grants (and loans).
"By “opportunities,” you don’t mean that you don’t have a chance to compete for the same spots as black citizens, because you do. And you don’t mean that blacks, on average, do better in admissions, hiring, and promotions than white people do, because they don’t."
I've worked in Government acquisitions and yes minorities have greater opportunities than do non-minorities. There are acquisition vehicles for contracting in government that are solely based on race. Native American, Alaskan Native, Black, etc. I don't have opportunities to compete for those contracts as a white citizen. Minorities have had greater access to admissions to colleges. What they do with that access is completely up to them. Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on 'need'. If you make over a certain amount per year you don't get grants. I had to show that I had 'lost' my job to get the Pell grant that I got, and that grant is available to anyone.
"You sound like actor Craig T. Nelson, complaining that no one gave him anything when he was on food stamps and welfare.
I’m sure you’ve had to work hard, and that you had to find the money to pay for college. But ask yourself, how is that you were able to find a way to pay for college, when most Americans are not able to go to college at all? Did you not benefit from good parenting or a sound home life? Did you grow up in abject poverty? In a crime-ridden neighborhood?"
What does welfare or food stamps have do do with what I said? I never said I complained about what my background was or how I got where I am. I simply stated that, should they wish, opportunities to attend college and go on to a good career are available to anyone and my being proof of that. As far as where I grew up I grew up in many neighborhoods and sometimes my dad was absent (being deployed and all). One neighborhood in particular was very crime ridden (a housing project in Boston). I had a man tripped out on angel dust try to break into the bedroom I shared with 3 other boys)trying to get away from the cops. So please do not assume that just because I claim white heritage I grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth.
"So what do you do about the fact that in this country, because of our history, each person doesn’t receive according to his or her own efforts?"
What efforts are you referring to? If a child of any race does well in lower schools he/she can apply for scholarships to all universities. They, if their parents earn insufficient pay, apply for grants. They can apply for loans. They can work. If you came down to New Orleans and looked at the projects you would see that the majority of children are not doing well in school so they have little hope of attending college. This is the effort to which I am referring, getting out there and getting a job, working hard, not waiting for a handout. Staying out of trouble. Parents have to instill these values into the children instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them. If they wait it is too late and the child will be dead or in jail or working a minimum wage job(s) to make ends meet. There are other avenues out of the poverty that are available to anyone who has passed high school. The military was the route I chose as it was one with which I was familiar.
James says:
Rick,
Are you saying that the grants and loans which I was able to obtain are not available to everyone?
No, Rick, I'm not.
However, grants from certain agencies (non-profit agencies) are NOT available to all they are available to a minority only based on race.
Yes, there are private organizations with funding for disadvantaged groups, including historically disadvantaged racial minorities.
Now, if you don't approve of those funds, I respect that. Let's just not pretend that those funds mean that the pendulum has swung the other way, and that non-whites now have more opportunity in this country than whites do. Black families have endured many generations of discrimination, while white families accumulated resources through opportunities denied to blacks. Today, the accumulated weight of centuries of racial inequality leaves blacks distinctly disadvantaged, and the private funds you complain about are a drop in the bucket. They do not mean, for instance, that blacks overall now have more funding than whites. Just the opposite.
What I am saying is that it is not the availability of education or business opportunities it is the belief or the attitude of the majority of the minority that holds them back.
No, Rick. What is "holding them back" is that slavery and racial discrimination obviously generated a tremendous racial disparity in income, wealth, education and other factors.
What is "holding them back" is that there is no earthly way that most black families could have somehow caught up to the average white family by now.
Think about it: how would that happen? Even if opportunities had been equal since, say, the 1960s and 1970s, how would all but the luckiest black families have caught up to the average white family, which was also working hard to get ahead at the same time?
Yes, there have been very modest programs to assist this process. Affirmative action, right or wrong, has helped, but only a little, and has mostly benefited white people. There have been a few private scholarships for black students only. But these resources and opportunities don't even compensate for the remaining prejudice and discrimination we can still observe today, much less overcome generations of different accumulation of resources, tangible and intangible.
Just to give you one concrete example, after the generations of slavery and the generations of Jim Crow, the average white family in this country has a net worth that is $142,600 more than the average black family’s. That gap didn't arise because of bad attitudes, and we haven't done anything that should have eliminated it by now.
It is, mostly, the lack of push from the parents and the culture of the place in which they grew up in general that holds them back.
This is a racial stereotype, Rick. You're painting all black people with a very broad brush, even while insisting that not all white people be seen as the same.
In fact, even if we grant that there are black communities with unhelpful cultural values, so what? We see much the same in poor white communities. And if some black communities have more than their share of such values, where do you think that comes from? What in the history of the last few generations in this country might have caused some poor black communities to develop unhelpful cultural values?
Finally, what possible basis do you have for believing that it is "mostly" these values which are responsible for today's racial disparities?
In fact, these racial gaps have existed since the moment slavery ended. We can track their existence, year by year, since that time. There is no question where the inequality comes from. If you believe that individual values are a necessary part of any solution, that's fine. But you can't discount the substantial resource gap inherited by each generation, which is more than enough to account for what we see.
I know that what the majority of other people in my state does not cover their educational costs and the average family size is 3+ children. Where does the rest of the money come from?
Doesn't much of that money come from private financial aid from colleges and universities? Doesn't the rest of it come primarily from federal assistance for higher education, which comes largely from taxpayers in other states?
So, if I am paying for all those other children to attend school and college, how can I pay for my children to go to college?
What share of your taxes do you believe goes towards the college education of other children? Isn't it just a few dollars? Federal spending for higher education is only a small fraction of the federal budget.
I’ve worked in Government acquisitions and yes minorities have greater opportunities than do non-minorities.
No, contractors with a certain percentage of minority ownership have an edge obtaining federal government contracts.
That doesn't mean that minorities have more opportunities in this society than whites. In fact, programs like this have done very little to assist minorities, just like affirmative action, which despite its reputation primarily benefits whites.
Minorities have had greater access to admissions to colleges.
Again, no, they don't. You mean that students get extra consideration in the admissions process for belonging to a racial minority. That doesn't mean that they have greater access to higher education; in fact, we know that minorities in this country have less of a chance to go to college, even given similar abilities.
You're failing to take into account, for instance, the fact that it helps students enormously to come from a family that earns "well above the national average," and few minority families do. This is obviously a vicious circle, in which families which were disadvantaged in previous generations continue to face additional obstacles today.
Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on ‘need’.
Actually, much public and private aid for higher education is based on loans, not grants, which is one major reason why those with fewer financial resources often don't go to college: the burden of repaying loans falls much harder on poorer families, and it often doesn't seem worth the gamble.
You're also wrong to assert that "loans are available to anyone." Loans for college are not easy to obtain without parents who have good financial resources and stability, which is a further disadvantage that is passed on from one generation to the next.
What does welfare or food stamps have do do with what I said?
I was referring, as I said, to actor Craig T. Nelson's comment that he received food stamps and welfare, yet no one was helping him. I said that you sound like that, when you complain that you had to do it all yourself, and unlike minorities, no one "gave you anything."
I never said I complained about what my background was or how I got where I am.
You said, "I’ve worked hard to get where I am. I begged, borrowed, and worked my way through college, no one ‘gave’ me anything that anyone else couldn’t have gotten."
I'm not suggesting that you haven't endured hardships or worked hard in your life. But this doesn't mean that you can simply dismiss the plight of others as their own responsibility.
I know Boston quite well. There are tremendous racial disparities in Boston, and still quite a bit of prejudice, especially in the rougher neighborhoods. To suggest that race is now irrelevant in struggling to get ahead is simply not realistic.
What efforts are you referring to? If a child of any race does well in lower schools he/she can apply for scholarships to all universities.
That fact that any child can, in theory, apply to any university is just that, a theory.
In fact, children in poorer neighborhoods (and especially in poorer black communities) do not attend schools that are as good as those in middle-class or wealthy suburbs. From what you've said, I suspect you've faced that fact yourself. Colleges don't take those schools as seriously. Teachers in the poorer schools do not generally push their better students to prepare for college, while in the better communities, teachers tend to push almost everyone to aim for college.
But it starts earlier than that. Poorer children in this country start off doing less well in school, and the gap grows dramatically in their earliest years of schooling. Are poorer children inherently less smart? Are they overwhelmingly inherently lazy, in ways that are their own fault?
I think the more likely explanation is that poverty, lack of community resources, and similar factors matter to opportunity. No doubt, some of the most talented and hard-working young people can persevere and overcome these obstacles. Perhaps you think only those children deserve success. But the reality is that children from other backgrounds can enjoy much more success, with far less effort or talent.
This is the effort to which I am referring, getting out there and getting a job, working hard, not waiting for a handout. Staying out of trouble.
I strongly agree with you about the importance of these values for all people.
However, if we simultaneously turn our backs on the structural problems in our society that provide some young people with far greater challenges than others, if we tell them that hard work is the key but do not reward hard work, this will only breed cynicism and despair.
Parents have to instill these values into the children instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them. If they wait it is too late and the child will be dead or in jail ….
I think this is a very revealing comment, Rick.
You're thinking specifically of impoverished neighborhoods, where this might be true.
In middle-class and upper-class communities, of course, these values are still important. But if parents fail to instill these values early on, it is doubtful that the price will be a child who is dead or in jail.
The military was the route I chose as it was one with which I was familiar.
I think familiarity is one of the many factors we face here, Rick.
For some young people, the familiar route is the military.
For others, it may be a minimum-wage, dead-end job.
What our communities know, what is familiar, profoundly shapes what we conceive of doing. If some communities have known only poverty and discrimination for many generations, what surprise is it that today, that proves to be a vicious cycle for so many?
Rick S says:
"the average white family in this country has a net worth that is $142,600 more than the average black family’s"
James,
Where did you get these numbers from? This is not the national annual "average" salary for any race group. It may be the total lifetime earnings, and, if so, then that is not really that much difference over a 30-40 year span ($4000 a year).
As far as complaining I wasn't, I was simply stating fact.
As far as the money spent on education by the state it comes from my, and other, wage earner's taxes based on income. So this means that having a higher income you pay more in taxes. Let's say I am taxed $12,000 a year based on my wages. Another, lower wage earner does not pay as much in taxes per year. Let's say they pay about $6,000 a year in taxes. Now, if the cost of sending a child to school is $9000 a year then obviously the extra $3000 for the child of the lower income family has to come from somewhere, states can't print their own money anymore. It is simple mathematics and it means that I am paying for their child to attend school.
"What our communities know, what is familiar, profoundly shapes what we conceive of doing. If some communities have known only poverty and discrimination for many generations, what surprise is it that today, that proves to be a vicious cycle for so many?"
I like this and agree very much that it is your environment that shapes the way you think. Culture is a very big contributor to our way of thinking. Now, the question is, how do we break the cycle? How do we get the children at risk free of their culture? Do we do this by saying "I'm sorry my forefathers held you in slavery? No, that won't do a thing except make us feel better. Do we do this by redistribution of wealth? No, redistribution of wealth would only serve to prolong the cycle by keeping those in most need in that situation. Hand outs never work. Hands up will work if the recipient is willing to help. Even God stated "I help those who help themselves." (If you believe in that sort of thing). We can't keep raising the minimum wage because it affects the cost of so everything else. Take for example a hamburger. If it costs $3.00 to make and you sell it for $4.00 then the minimum wage goes up by $.50 the cost of making the hamburger is now $3.50 to make enough to pay the bills and make a profit you will have to raise the price by $.50 to $4.50. A wage earner will now have to pay more for the same product. He will ask for more money to maintain the lifestyle he had before the increase. To pay for the bills and make profit his employer will have to raise prices on his goods… We have a cycle of economics as well. Any change in the cost of one thing can and does have an effect on almost everything else. "Trickle Up Economics" to paraphrase.
Do we subsidize their wages? Again we get into communism or socialism with its inherent problems.
Do we subsidize their housing? We are doing that and we see where it has gotten us. We have ghetto cultures that do not value that which would get them or their children out of such an environment.
So where do we start? Where do we apply our good intentions? What form should such good intentions or actions take?
James says:
Rick, I'll be sure to respond to your comment fully later, as you've clearly taken the time to think through this issue and to share your thoughts with us in detail.
For the moment, I just want to clear up an initial misconception:
Where did you get these numbers from? This is not the national annual “average” salary for any race group.
A slight miscommunication, Rick. I said "net worth," not "income" or total lifetime earnings. Obviously, each of these is important, and in each case, the racial gap has narrowed a bit but has never been closed.
bobbo says:
That "net worth" versus "net income" is a very big deal especially in economic downturns like we have now. My family for instance has helped one another buy first homes, return home in between jobs, pass cars around rather than trade them in, financial help from time to time when needed.
I've counted my blessings to be so advantaged. Poor families don't have the advantage of NET WORTH and I think they suffer disproportionately from it.
I'm only thinking of this because my best friend's family has higher net worth than my own and he gets better cars from his dad than I do from mine. Its just not fair!!!!!
Rick S says:
James:
"You mean that students get extra consideration in the admissions process for belonging to a racial minority."
This does mean that a minority child has greater access or opportunities to attend higher education than does a white child of similar abilities and grades. There are only so many admissions each year at every college and the more that are taken up the fewer are available (obviously). If a minority child gets extra consideration for entrance and accepts that entrance then that seat is not available to anyone else. And, if there is extra consideration, in what form does it take? If, for example a minority child has a "C" average and a white child has a "C+" average the extra consideration would mean that the "C+" child may not be able to attend as the seat would be taken by the "C" minority child. This, again, is simple mathematics.
"You’re failing to take into account, for instance, the fact that it helps students enormously to come from a family that earns “well above the national average,” and few minority families do."
It is obvious that few families of any sort do not earn "well above the national average". So you could and should say there are disproportionally fewer children of middle to lower income families attending college than those of families earning more than the national average. The question comes in to play where a child of a family that earns more than the national average still cannot attend college because his family earns too much money to receive grants and would need to take out loans, which they couldn't pay back. This happens all the time. What do these children need to do?
Loans are available to ANYONE. Grants, however are based on ‘need’.
"Actually, much public and private aid for higher education is based on loans, not grants, which is one major reason why those with fewer financial resources often don’t go to college: the burden of repaying loans falls much harder on poorer families, and it often doesn’t seem worth the gamble.
You’re also wrong to assert that “loans are available to anyone.” Loans for college are not easy to obtain without parents who have good financial resources and stability, which is a further disadvantage that is passed on from one generation to the next."
Yes loans are fairly easy to obtain no matter what your financial situation is. Having taken out such loans to help pay for college myself I know how easy it is to obtain such loans. There may be a situation where the child must wait for a year or so before attending to show his/her independence from his parents prior to applying for such loans but that is not such a great sacrifice.
As for grants, I can only speak from experience. I was able to apply and receive certain grants, which were and are available to anyone in a similar financial situation. I just had to show that my expected income fell below a certain level for the upcoming year.
You speak of opportunities available to minorities vs. those available to whites. I state there are opportunities available to minorities that are not available to whites, which take the form of extra consideration for advancement (equal opportunity such as in the case of the firefighters), extra consideration for college placement, extra consideration for Government contracts and contract vehicles, and extra consideration for certain grants or loans both for business and education. Whether or not a minority citizen takes advantage of these extra considerations is totally up to the individual. There must be some percieved benefit otherwise no one would take such advantage. I guess I am saying that this is what we need to accomplish for all. Show the benefit, give them the vision of what life could be outside their current culture or place in life. One can only view the world through the eyes of the culture in which one was raised. If the culture does not value a thing then it is extremely unlikely that an individual of that culture will value that thing. So how do we change a culture? We have a difficult enough time changing our cultural view of math and science in the US. Sports figures and rock stars are our heros not the scientists and business people who are making the system work. How do we change that? I'm not sure where to throw a sabbot into the machine to break the cycle.
I've really enjoyed our discussion on this topic.
Peterson says:
This country is in worse shape than I thought. I would not have expected so many people to contest what your cousin wrote. It's clear that compassion and empathy are not common amongst the American people. All I can say is a child growing up in the inner city does not have half the opportunities of a child growing up in suburbia. I can say this because I grew in spite of major hindrances to my development. Who should I blame? No one. But I must be sure to do my best to provide for those who do not put themselves in that place. Sure I could blame it on the parents but how does help the child? Sure I could blame it on whites but most did not have a thing to do with my upbringing? The point is that no one is to blame. If though we cannot have common compassion for little children who have no control over where they are born then what has this country come to?
I wager that the whole of civil rights argument can rest on this idea: that children ought to have equal opportunities and be able to compete on a level playing field. Have we reached that point. Not at all. Will we ever reach that point? Not when people are self-centered and can only think about what they themselves went through. Yes, you're not personally responsible for the slave trade. But does that mean you can turn a blind eye to the inequalities that exist today. Is it fair for your child to receive a good education while another child who is not responsible at all for his circumstances or upbringing suffers with a sub-par education system.
James you have done an excellent job defending your opinions against a wave of obstinate, compassionless and ignorant people. You represent that glimmer of hope that men like MLK spoke directly to and knew would be the voice of change.
bobbo says:
A question: if our nation recognized that everyone benefits when everyone is provided an education/training that maximizes their potential by however that might be defined, would there be a need for any consideration of race or past circumstances?
In other words, if the USA in fact provided tuition, support, school based housing, basic medical so that every person who wanted an education could get one would the Living Consequences have any relevance outside of a study of history?
In other words, is an appeal to past injustices just a redundant unnecessary argument in support of the need for sound social services in general or is it an independent specific argument for itself in isolation?