Why did I bring it up? Just the basis for my uniformed opinion that some people on welfare are lazy–if lazy means not willing, or not capable, of working, not everyone makes that telling distinction. My father’s special caseload was made up of the not capable. Maybe with an hour of supervision and hour of “work” could be artificially calculated. I’ve seen figures from time to time of simply taking the welfare budget and dividing it up into the number of recipients without the welfare/governmental overhead. Seems like their benefits would double or triple, but then over time, welfare cheats would predominate. Biggest cheat back when was common law marriage with one or more husbands hanging around sponging off the welfare check and not contributing. Dad thought the husbands should be incorporated into the social safety net but the rules did not allow it. All led to more fractured family structures. Not so much the Living Consequences as much as active mismanagement of today. Course that was all years ago. Time enough for 1-2-3 more generations to come on board but I don’t even know “for sure” if the same type of welfare even exists today.

I think it has sunk in that you don’t propose any action, just a sounding board for those who wish to learn more about the issues. I think you are generally sympathetic to blacks who currently find themselves disadvantaged because of the living legacy of slavery and continuing racial discrimination. Me too. I just do think that after extensive study of any issue, that some ideas would form about what ought to be done about it. But thats just me. Sorry I projected that for so long onto you. Its just very much how I see the world. Each contribution to a problem is that much more help. I think confronting discrimination when it is presented to you is one thing all “right minded” people can do. I think I’ve had 3-4 opportunities to confront people about their bad attitudes. Hopefully, every little bit helps?

“So, for instance, you should not mention when your ancestors arrived, since knowing the history should show you how little that affects how much this history has impacted your life, or what your responsibilities or next moves should be.” I’m not aware of any impact on my life and this statement seems inconsistent with saying I shouldn’t feel guilt? Could you explain that–or not. I grew up around the world. As a childr, I had acid thrown in my face because I was an American in Germany. What I know is that groups of people don’t get along with other groups of people in every country in the world. In America, a lot of it is whites hating the blacks. In Jamaica, South Africa the other way around. In Japan, the yellow man is not comfortable with the big nosed round eyed milk smelling barbarian.

What impact of American History should I especially feel? I still feel just sucking it up and getting on with life has a lot going for it regardless of anyone’s personal history/predicament and it can be implemented with every new sunrise without the agreement of anyone else. Very self actualizing. Do what you can do and drag society along with you, be happy you have the insight to recognize it.

That being some time ago actually allowing for 5th or 6th generation recipients, I thought I was soft pedaling by only going for 4th generation recipients

Are you saying that your father thought he had a lot of 5th or 6th generation welfare recipients? Our welfare programs aren’t that old ….

And what, exactly, is your point in saying so? Do you believe that blacks are more likely to be on welfare for generations, and not because of poverty or the legacy of racial discrimination, but because of the fact of being on welfare? If so, then your father’s experience, as valuable as it is in trying to understand what happens with welfare, couldn’t alone tell us this.

I doubt, frankly, that any moral hazard problem in welfare, by which I mean the adverse effects you’re describing, is more of an issue for some races than it is for others. I think we would need to know that before proclaiming it as a problem, and if it were true, we would urgently want to understand why.

I want to shoulder my responsibilities. What should be my next move?

I have to leave in a few minutes, to give a talk with Katrina Browne at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy on this very subject, actually.

So let me just say that I agree completely that you should feel no guilt, but I do believe it’s imperative that you understand the basics of this history, or at least not believe strongly in any myths about it. So, for instance, you should not mention when your ancestors arrived, since knowing the history should show you how little that affects how much this history has impacted your life, or what your responsibilities or next moves should be.

Beyond learning and talking about this history, I’m simply not interested in telling you what to do. I’m happy to use this blog, in addition to those primary purposes, to also talk about possible next steps that people want to propose or to discuss, and I’m happy to offer my thoughts on these possibilities, as well, and even to report on related outside developments from time to time. But no matter how many times you ask, I’m not going to call for next steps in the areas you’re talking about, because I’m not interested in pushing for those kinds of solutions.

And that’s a bit of what we have here given that neither one of us supports reparations. You are right, I know nothing about most subjects and not enough about subjects I actually deal with. As stated, my father was a welfare worker dealing with third generation recipients. In a case load of 60 families, all but 4 were non-white. That being some time ago actually allowing for 5th or 6th generation recipients, I thought I was soft pedaling by only going for 4th generation recipients, but Dad stopped talking about these issues when he died, on the job as a coincidence.

So, wiping the slate clean, rebooting the system: James Baldwin is right. I don’t feel any guilt for race relations in America. My ancestors are from England and Sweden via Canada not arriving in USA until early 1900′s. I think even Baldwin would agree I have no guilt even by his lights? So the only remaining issue is my obligations under the Living Consequences. I want to shoulder my responsibilities. What should be my next move?

I honestly don’t follow you here, Bobbo. I realize you’re aiming in part for a critique of how you see my style of argumentation, but what are you actually arguing? Reparations “by name”? Welfare surely isn’t that. And you can argue that welfare benefits blacks in a race-neutral way, and that this is good, but that doesn’t make it reparations, and it doesn’t mean that welfare is actually closing the racial gap, either.

what of the fourth generation on Welfare with no plans to teach their kiddies anything but staying on welfare? Not all, but some.

Some? Bobbo, do you actually know that there are families that have been on welfare for four generations, and encourage their children to stay on welfare? Or are you just imagining this might be true?

In any event, I’m not arguing for welfare programs here, and I’m not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that there’s a racial disparity here? That black welfare recipients are more likely to be lazy or linger on welfare than white recipients? If not, what’s the issue? That any such effect disproportionately affects blacks because they are more likely to be poor and on welfare? If that’s the issue, then I’d say the bigger problem is race-based poverty, not a racial disparity in adverse welfare affects.

its not simply being black in America that causes their group underachievement

You assert this, Bobbo, but it depends on your unexamined assumption that black families, if I understand you correctly, are disproportionately buying into bad cultural (“familial”) values and failing to overcome race-based hurdles that they should be able to overcome with the proper attitudes.

In fact, you have no reason to believe that blacks in this country are “underachieving” relative to whites, or that black families should be doing better in overcoming racial inequality on their own, if only they held values more like whites. As far as I can see, in fact, you have no basis for arguing that black families in this country are more lacking than white families in the proper cultural (or “familial”) values.

Does welfare make people lazy? Sure==some, not all. Anyone’s favorite example should be the Author of Henry Potter, writing her drafts while on the public dole. All good wizards everywhere benefited from her temporary stay on welfare. But what of the fourth generation on Welfare with no plans to teach their kiddies anything but staying on welfare? Not all, but some. ((With Clinton’s welfare reform, do they even exist anymore? How could they not?))

And more whites than blacks would be so affected, but not proportionately more which is the relevant definition of the concept.

“I’m just not sure what your argument is for why your position on reparations is “credible.” Because it is a program that disproportionately benefits blacks. Just because you disagree, or don’t have the imagination to see it, doesn’t make my philosophical position incredible.

My very main argument against any kind of direct reparations is that it is just too difficult and contentious to calculate, it most likely wouldn’t change the black condition, it would get people looking to the past rather than the future.

“I’m trying to show him that differences in such values aren’t behind the racial disparities in this country. /// Well of course they are. That is the LC of racial discrimination including slavery. It has destroyed the family so that the kiddies don’t believe that those values are the key to success so disproportionately blacks don’t work to overcome the hurdles placed there by racists. I just don’t describe those values as “cultural” but rather familial which is why many black families, those with mom and dad especially, have been able to overcome all the hurdles. So its not simply being black in America that causes their group underachievement and thats why reparations, or special attention, or whatever becomes so much more difficult than giving 40 acres and a mule or a ticket to Liberia.

But I’m open to specific ACTION PLANS should anyone come up with one.

I will simply note that welfare does very, very little to eliminate our society’s racial inequity or, put differently, the harm done to black families in previous generations. What progress has been made in recent generations towards closing that gap has been largely due to increasing opportunity, the hard work of individuals, and to programs aimed specifically at redressing such harm.

white racists who claim that it should be cut back because it helps blacks to be lazy, the Cadillac Welfare Queen, and so forth.

As long as you understand that this is racist talk, Bobbo, and not the reality. After all, if welfare encourages its recipients to be lazy, then it’s creating more lazy whites than blacks.

I’m just not sure what your argument is for why your position on reparations is “credible.” You seem to be simply referring to these racist nuts.

I fear I’m reading too much into your desire to change “the culture” of black people.

I’m not out to change anyone’s culture, Bobbo, but I’ve agreed with Rick that cultural values are quite important. We’re speaking of culture in terms of values like individualism, hard work, the importance of family, community, and education, and I’m trying to show him that differences in such values aren’t behind the racial disparities in this country.

So, let me say this in all honesty: YES–I think a program of general welfare given to all people regardless of race based on their economic situation that disproportionately benefits the blacks is a kind of direct reparations to the blacks for the harm caused generations ago. And quite a good program too–we should add to it with education and better health benefits.

Now, my reparations position isn’t credible until you realize that often times increases/maintenance of welfare programs is attacked by white racists who claim that it should be cut back because it helps blacks to be lazy, the Cadillac Welfare Queen, and so forth. When I hear talk like that, I think “well, perhaps they deserve it then.”

So, depending on how one wishes to parse it, the subject is inextricably intertwined==and we know we can’t discuss that kind of issue with any clarity.

As to your Rick thread, I’m going to pass. I fear I’m reading too much into your desire to change “the culture” of black people. Once again, words/concepts we just don’t define the same way.

Once again, yes. I’ve said that, and I’ve just affirmed, in my most recent comment above, that this is based on an essential fact that more Americans should understand; namely, blacks benefit disproportionately because they are disproportionately poor.

I’ve simply said that I don’t believe this is the relevant issue with your claim that welfare amounts to reparations for slavery.

Let me give you an imagined example: suppose that Alaskan natives are agitating for reparations, and amount to 0.1% of the population. Suppose further that Alaskan natives amount to 0.2% of people on welfare. This is quite disproportionate, yes?

Does that mean that welfare is actually reparations for Alaskan natives? Even though the program isn’t aimed primarily at Alaskan natives, primarily benefits other people, doesn’t do much towards the claimed reparations or any existing harm that Alaskan natives allege today, and isn’t even intended to do anything in particular for Alaskan natives or their reparations claims?

Would you agree they benefit disproportionately from the welfare program?

I have expressly stated you are coy, usually but perhaps not always, with the caution that I could be wrong. We relate to certain words and ideas very differently. Doesn’t happen often, but does happen. Perhaps should happen when an expert talks to the barely informed. I apologize.

Well done!

OK–finally, I think we have a crystal clear example of how “twisty” you are. … you agreed and even counseled someone else that they ought to keep in mind that discrimination against blacks was indicated because they were disproportionately ON WELFARE.

Bobbo, I’ve never said that we know blacks are discriminated against because blacks are disproportionately on welfare. We know that blacks are often still discriminated against from a variety of social science research. Blacks are disproportionately on welfare because blacks are disproportionately poor or unemployed, which in turn results from several factors, including centuries of slavery and discrimination and remaining modern-day prejudice.

when THE VERY SAME STATISTIC is used to support the argument that reparations/compensations/efforts have been made in the form of disproportionate welfare support, you switch arguments and go with total dollar spent.

I’m certainly not trying to hide either fact. I say again and again on this blog, and wish more people would be aware, that (1) there is racial inequality in this country, which is why we see things like blacks disproportionately on welfare, and (2) blacks are not the primary recipients of welfare.

I think you need to ask not whether I’m emphasizing one fact or the other at any given time, but whether I’m focusing on the relevant fact each time.

In this case, I maintain that welfare programs can’t amount to reparations if most of the total spending is for people who aren’t black. What does it even mean to have reparations if most of the “reparations” are spent on people who aren’t among those to be compensated? The fact that welfare may slightly help blacks more than whites isn’t relevant, or else any program which does so is somehow “reparations.”

Once before you said you have a plan and I asked where was it and you responded it wasn’t really a plan, I was being too concrete.

I suspect, Bobbo, that I said that I have no intention of producing a political action plan, concrete or otherwise, to comprehensively address our nation’s racial inequality. You may want me to, but I have no intention of doing so.

My own plan of action is concrete. It simply doesn’t do what you want it to do.

I tell you its the same with “examples.” … We don’t need/haven’t requested examples of the fact that people don’t know their history, we need … examples of what you want people to do.

I’ve told you exactly what I want people to do, Bobbo. And you aren’t asking me questions about it, or asking for more detail. You’re asking me to offer you an action plan in a completely different area. It’s fine if you want to do such a thing, but I don’t believe in doing so.

If its only to educate the less informed, thats great. … If more==be honest, direct, express and SAY IT!!!!!!

It’s not just to “educate the less informed.” But it’s also not more than what I’ve said, and it’s a bit tiring to have you constantly intersperse thoughtful, articulate arguments and objections with the repeated insinuation that I must want more and am merely being coy.