Comments on: Washington Post on “Traces of the Trade” http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/ Exploring the Legacy of Slavery and Race in the United States Sun, 07 Mar 2010 05:02:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: James http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-98 James Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:26:10 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-98 Actually, John, I never left the concept of treating everyone as an individual. It was you who raised the subject of collective guilt (possibly in response to something in the <i>Washington Post</i> article, but you didn’t say). Actually, John, I never left the concept of treating everyone as an individual. It was you who raised the subject of collective guilt (possibly in response to something in the Washington Post article, but you didn’t say).

]]> By: johnperna http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-100 johnperna Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:17:25 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-100 You wrote: Do you really believe that everyone in the United States has benefited equally from slavery? Now you are going back to the concept of INDIVIDUAL guilt and INDIVIDUAL benefit You wrote:
Do you really believe that everyone in the United States has benefited equally from slavery?
Now you are going back to the concept of INDIVIDUAL guilt and INDIVIDUAL benefit

]]> By: James http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-99 James Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:26:51 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-99 John writes: <i>Collective benefit works the same way as collective guilt. “Everyone owes everyone” is that same as no one owes anyone.</i> John, I said that all Americans have benefited, to one degree or another, from slavery. Not that everyone owes everyone. Do you really believe that everyone in the United States has benefited equally from slavery? Or are you saying that as long as everyone has received some benefit, no matter the size, no one can complain about their losses, no matter how much larger? More concretely, do you really believe that because everyone has reaped some of the economic benefits of slavery, we should be unconcerned that millions of our citizens are still feeling the economic impact of the enslavement of their ancestors? The economic facts are striking: the descendants of slaves, for instance, have scarcely more of the wealth of this nation than their formerly enslaved ancestors had. To take another example, black homeownership rates aren’t simply much lower than those of whites; they’re advancing so slowly, even in this enlightened age of equal opportunity, than blacks and whites won’t reach parity at this rate for thousands of years. John writes:

Collective benefit works the same way as collective guilt. “Everyone owes everyone” is that same as no one owes anyone.

John, I said that all Americans have benefited, to one degree or another, from slavery. Not that everyone owes everyone.

Do you really believe that everyone in the United States has benefited equally from slavery? Or are you saying that as long as everyone has received some benefit, no matter the size, no one can complain about their losses, no matter how much larger?

More concretely, do you really believe that because everyone has reaped some of the economic benefits of slavery, we should be unconcerned that millions of our citizens are still feeling the economic impact of the enslavement of their ancestors? The economic facts are striking: the descendants of slaves, for instance, have scarcely more of the wealth of this nation than their formerly enslaved ancestors had. To take another example, black homeownership rates aren’t simply much lower than those of whites; they’re advancing so slowly, even in this enlightened age of equal opportunity, than blacks and whites won’t reach parity at this rate for thousands of years.

]]> By: johnperna http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-101 johnperna Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:16:57 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-101 James wrote: John, I agree with you about collective guilt, which is why it’s a terrible concept. Then James wrote: You wrote, though: Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery? It would be, John. And all Americans have benefited enormously from slavery, since slavery contributed so heavily to the rise of the U.S. economy to be the premiere economy in the world. I respond: Collective benefit works the same way as collective guilt. “Everyone owes everyone” is that same as no one owes anyone. James wrote:
John, I agree with you about collective guilt, which is why it’s a terrible concept.

Then James wrote:

You wrote, though:

Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery?

It would be, John. And all Americans have benefited enormously from slavery, since slavery contributed so heavily to the rise of the U.S. economy to be the premiere economy in the world.

I respond:

Collective benefit works the same way as collective guilt. “Everyone owes everyone” is that same as no one owes anyone.

]]> By: James http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-104 James Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:16:05 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-104 John, I agree with you about collective guilt, which is why it’s a terrible concept. I haven’t heard either Tom or Katrina talk about supporting reparations, at least not as that term is commonly used. They speak of “repair,” and they define it quite differently. I’m certain, though, that neither of them could be planning to pay reparations from their own funds, as neither of them is wealthy — nor have they earned any money from slavery or the slave trade, at least not any more than you or I have. Whether or not it would be appropriate to seize any remaining slave-trade and slavery money for reparations, there isn’t likely to be any left — at least not any money made directly from those businesses. While the entire U.S. economy owes a great deal to the investment of slave trade and slavery profits in its early industrialization, the fortunes of those directly involved were generally dissipated many generations ago. That’s certainly true of James D’Wolf’s fortune. You wrote, though: <i>Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery?</i> It would be, John. And all Americans have benefited enormously from slavery, since slavery contributed so heavily to the rise of the U.S. economy to be the premiere economy in the world. Our standard of living owes a great deal to that important aspect of our early economy. My strong objections to reparations do not involve the issue of who benefited, since clearly we all did. John, I agree with you about collective guilt, which is why it’s a terrible concept.

I haven’t heard either Tom or Katrina talk about supporting reparations, at least not as that term is commonly used. They speak of “repair,” and they define it quite differently. I’m certain, though, that neither of them could be planning to pay reparations from their own funds, as neither of them is wealthy — nor have they earned any money from slavery or the slave trade, at least not any more than you or I have.

Whether or not it would be appropriate to seize any remaining slave-trade and slavery money for reparations, there isn’t likely to be any left — at least not any money made directly from those businesses. While the entire U.S. economy owes a great deal to the investment of slave trade and slavery profits in its early industrialization, the fortunes of those directly involved were generally dissipated many generations ago. That’s certainly true of James D’Wolf’s fortune.

You wrote, though:

Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery?

It would be, John. And all Americans have benefited enormously from slavery, since slavery contributed so heavily to the rise of the U.S. economy to be the premiere economy in the world. Our standard of living owes a great deal to that important aspect of our early economy. My strong objections to reparations do not involve the issue of who benefited, since clearly we all did.

]]> By: johnperna http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-103 johnperna Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:20:07 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-103 The big problem with collective guilt is that it punishes the innocent. We now hear that some of the descendents of the slave traders are supporting the idea of reparations. Tom DeWolf and Katrina Browne of the DeWolf family are examples. Are they offering to pay these reparations from their own family funds, or do the want someone else to pay? If there was any thought of justice in all of this, then the source of the reparations would be limited to nothing other than the assets that were inherited from slave traders and slave masters. In 1812, the DeWolfs owned more ships than the United States Navy. In 1837, former U.S. Senator James DeWolf died as the second richest man in America. Would the descendents of the slave traders and slave masters volunteer to exchange their financial portfolios for the financial portfolios of the descendents of the slaves? The descendents of the slave traders and of the slave masters might learn a lot from the conversations that they could have with the descendents of the slaves, while they wait together in the food stamp and welfare offices. Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery? Let’s see if we understand this correctly. The slave traders and of the slave masters benefited from slavery. The descendents of the slave traders now want to benefit again by making a film, or writing a book, condemning slave traders. No one is volunteering to make any sacrifice of their own assets to compensate those who were injured by slavery. The big problem with collective guilt is that it punishes the innocent. We now hear that some of the descendents of the slave traders are supporting the idea of reparations. Tom DeWolf and Katrina Browne of the DeWolf family are examples. Are they offering to pay these reparations from their own family funds, or do the want someone else to pay? If there was any thought of justice in all of this, then the source of the reparations would be limited to nothing other than the assets that were inherited from slave traders and slave masters. In 1812, the DeWolfs owned more ships than the United States Navy. In 1837, former U.S. Senator James DeWolf died as the second richest man in America. Would the descendents of the slave traders and slave masters volunteer to exchange their financial portfolios for the financial portfolios of the descendents of the slaves? The descendents of the slave traders and of the slave masters might learn a lot from the conversations that they could have with the descendents of the slaves, while they wait together in the food stamp and welfare offices. Would it not be simple common sense that those who benefited from slavery should be the only ones to compensate those who were injured by slavery? Let’s see if we understand this correctly. The slave traders and of the slave masters benefited from slavery. The descendents of the slave traders now want to benefit again by making a film, or writing a book, condemning slave traders. No one is volunteering to make any sacrifice of their own assets to compensate those who were injured by slavery.

]]> By: Inheriting the Trade | Traces of the Trade featured in today’s Washington Post http://living.jdewperry.com/2008/06/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-174 Inheriting the Trade | Traces of the Trade featured in today’s Washington Post Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:42:38 +0000 http://blog.jdewperry.com/2008/06/28/washington-post-on-traces-of-the-trade/#comment-174 [...] My cousin James does a terrific job of encapsulating the highlights in his blog, Impertinent Questions. [...] [...] My cousin James does a terrific job of encapsulating the highlights in his blog, Impertinent Questions. [...]

]]>